Lets talk about not cbetting IP

Do you cbet here usually? Why/why not?
How does your frequency change if the villain is a fish or a TAG reg?
If you cbet how often do you barrel turn? What cards?
Do you ever triple barrel? Why?

$0.5/$1 No Limit Holdem
5 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
Hero (UTG) ($111.75)
CO ($101.80)
BTN ($136.45)
SB ($112.35)
BB ($96.90)

Pre-flop: ($1.50, 5 players) Hero is UTG :qs: :tc:
Hero raises to $3.50, 3 folds, BB calls $2.50

Flop: :8c: :5s: :7d: ($7.50, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero ($108.25)?

Do you cbet here usually? Why/why not? What about A8 or A9?
How does your frequency change if the villain is a fish or a TAG reg?
If you cbet how often do you barrel turn? What cards?
Do you ever triple barrel? Why?
If you check back do you call a turn lead on certain cards? What cards?

$0.5/$1 No Limit Holdem
5 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($34.76)
CO ($59.35)
Hero (BTN) ($100.50)
SB ($154.64)
BB ($107.20)

Pre-flop: ($1.50, 5 players) Hero is BTN :7s: :ad:
2 folds, Hero raises to $3.50, 1 fold, BB calls $2.50

Flop: :9s: :8c: :7d: ($7.50, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero ($97)?

Hand 1 I often dont cbet as I tend to think a BB calling an UTG raise has mostly PPs in his range. Even if he didnt hit a set, he's unlikely to fold. I may triple barrel if I feel fairly confident he'd raise his sets and could fold unimproved either once the pot gets big, or I might cbet planning to barrel or 3 barrel if something J+ hits.

Hand 2 I dunno. I often check back thinking theres no value betting, but then it always seems like a mistake when BB bets 100% of turn cards and I really dont want to call 2 streets.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Irisheyes

Do you cbet here usually? Why/why not?
How does your frequency change if the villain is a fish or a TAG reg?
If you cbet how often do you barrel turn? What cards?
Do you ever triple barrel? Why?

$0.5/$1 No Limit Holdem
5 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
Hero (UTG) ($111.75)
CO ($101.80)
BTN ($136.45)
SB ($112.35)
BB ($96.90)

Pre-flop: ($1.50, 5 players) Hero is UTG :qs: :tc:
Hero raises to $3.50, 3 folds, BB calls $2.50

Flop: :8c: :5s: :7d: ($7.50, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero ($108.25)?

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Alot of the time I don't cbet this type of board tbh. My reasoning is that I'm just not getting enough folds on the flop for it to be profitable and I guess I just don't have a good enough idea of how to play the turn if I get c/c.

I'd rather cbet this spot against a tag reg than a fish because I think the tags preflop range is somewhat skewed towards high card hands like KJ or QT than hands that hit this board whereas the fish's range would be wider and would have a large mix of hands both low and high. I guess I get c/r bluffed more often on this type of board by a TAG though so that counts against cbetting it into him.

I think that if we do cbet here we do need to barrel a load on the turn and probably also the river. Especially against tags who's c/c range on this flop will have lots of middling type pair hands that cant stand multiple barrels. I think we should bet anything T-A on the turn and probably bet any river if these cards fall on the turn except maybe an A turn because it makes a lot of 2 pairs and A high makes a pair and maybe don't bet the river if the turn is a K or J and the river pairs one of the flop cards. It's interesting about whether or not to bet a deuce/trey turn, it doesn't hit either of us and I think we should bet because we want to keep our barrelling opportunities open for the river.

Just typing this out I think I should bet this flop spot way more than I do.

I can't call leads on any turn cards that aren't a ten or queen which is another reason not to check back the flop. It's essentially giving up and there's sooo many flops like this one that can hit that I can't just give them all up. I could maybe raise the turn because his leading range could be like 70% air but it's hard to rep anything and hard to work into a shania pleasing strategy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bjsaust

Hand 1 I often dont cbet as I tend to think a BB calling an UTG raise has mostly PPs in his range. Even if he didnt hit a set, he's unlikely to fold. I may triple barrel if I feel fairly confident he'd raise his sets and could fold unimproved either once the pot gets big, or I might cbet planning to barrel or 3 barrel if something J+ hits.

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I tend to think that peoples range are probably a bit like this:

fish: way too much of everything
mediocre regs: have OOP calling ranges which are primarily low pocket pairs and low SC's and some suited broadways (I guess thats opposite to what I said in my last post)
better regs: only pocket pairs
best regs: higher pocket pairs and broadways and suited connectors and Axs but their ranges change based on the opener because they have a postflop exploitation strategy in mind.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bjsaust

Hand 2 I dunno. I often check back thinking theres no value betting, but then it always seems like a mistake when BB bets 100% of turn cards and I really dont want to call 2 streets.

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Yes this essentially sums up my exact thoughts.

I don't think there is any value in betting. If we do bet we get c/r by a range which we usually have semi-decent equity against but bad reverse implied odds, so b/c isn't nice. We also get c/r with a fairly high frequency so b/f isn't a good line.

But when we check it's just so easy to bluff us on the turn and river and pretty obvious what we have. I almost feel like it's more profitable to just bet the flop because I'm making so many mistakes on the turn and river when I check behind.

hand 1:
First of all, it matters a lot that it's a 5 handed game and what our image is. I'm not raising QTo in this position i.e.

I'd cbet against a fish because he folds a lot of non-pair hands. I'd barrel T+ on the turn, give up after that.

The reg has a hand here, or c/r's missed overs, too much to cbet air against him imo. I'd check behind and bet J+ on the turn/river if we're not lead into.

I'd bet 8x+ as a value bet against both, and check behind other made hands.

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hand 2:
I check behind against fish and regs. Betting any turn when checked to.
Against an unknown calling a turn bet on a non 6/T/J and folding to river aggression if I'm not improving.
Calling really only becomes an option with reads on villain imo.

(i.e. if we know as much as he's a donk or overaggressive I've no problem calling blank rivers)

hand 1 I c bet, hand 2 ill vary between c/b and check back.

My thinking being in hand 1 if we c bet we should get folds from all broadways and low pps as well as several ax's plus we have no sd value, and if we check it would be to c/f unless we spike a 10 or q. Also if my c bet is called I'll generally shut down in this spot, whether it be vs a tag or a fish, this is also a really bad board to triple barrel.


In hand 2 I'd say it's more oppenent dependent, against a more agro guy who will bet when checked to and is fond of c/ring flops like this I will c/back, against guys who are far more str8 forward I'll just c bet and hope to take it down there and then.

hand 1 I used not to cbet in this spot, but because I'm raising this hand UTG I feel like I have to cbet and rep that overpair
and usually I can rep an ace or a king anyway because most people put you on AK no matter what you do (despite AK being a check back)
and sometimes you have to fire a third barrel to make someone fold TT on a king turn because they don't believe you (obv never against a fish)
and I'll also barrel T or Q for value and probably gaybet river for value depending on card/timing or sometimes vbet it big and rep a bluff

if I raise this from the cutoff I give up a lot more, especially if villain is a fish that doesn't fold to cbets, etc.


hand 2 is a check back unless villain is a fish and never ever raises
a9 is almost always a bet unless I have a read
a8 is dependent on villain, and almost always dependent on their raising frequency

another thing to consider if villain always plays fit or fold, in which case it becomes a clearer bet
I will almost never barrel cards that don't improve us unless I have A9 and I'm pretty confident the fish called with a gutshot + overcards in which case it's for value

Hand 1: i cbet because i feel i have enough FE and if even i dont he still will almost never raise bluff so i get to see 3 streets if i want to (As the UTG raiser you'll encounter this scenario a lot).

Hand 2: Can go either way based on reads. I lean toward cbetting, it has some value and your hand will be deceptive. If you check your hand is pretty faceup, and most opponents will think a turned A or 7 has hit you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Massimo

Hand 1: i cbet because i feel i have enough FE and if even i dont he still will almost never raise bluff so i get to see 3 streets if i want to (As the UTG raiser you'll encounter this scenario a lot).

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I keep hearing people talk about this idea of people putting you on a strong range and not bluffing you because you're UTG and it kinda scares me to be honest because it's something I NEVER think about other than with regards to 3betting. Also I play 5 max and I open like 23% UTG so it's not as applicable as it is with 6max. I guess I should think about it more though because if other people think about it then it will effect their ranges.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Massimo

Hand 2: Can go either way based on reads. I lean toward cbetting, it has some value and your hand will be deceptive. If you check your hand is pretty faceup, and most opponents will think a turned A or 7 has hit you.

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Do you check back any hands on this board? What kinda range?

hand 1
-I dont care if its 6 handed or 5 handed, this is a fold for me pre for sure. As played, I'd cbet since we're UTG and our barrels will hold a lot of weight.

hand 2
-if he's the type to c/r draws I might ck back, otherwise I'll put in a bet here

Ill probably look to fire a few streets in each hand. my thoughts are; theres some good barrel cards for us, easy to play if raised on any street, opp c/c range is gonna be weak, getting to SD by checking isnt likely (we usually call one street on hand 2 which i think is exploitable by anybody). Just some thoughts.

Are you playing at Ongame now Irish?

boss media

what Max said..

Grif - HE can prolly get away with raising QTo UTG 5-handed at 100nl.. but yeah at 400nl+ its obv a leak considering opponents r better

Do any of you guys who bet the second hand have any check-back range at all?

wrt to the QT open, there was an 62/6 fish in the SB.

that's probably good enough to open for me since I want to play lots of pots with the fish and we're going to make top pair shit kicker and he's going to give us his money

people who bet hand 2 probably check back ace high

Griff, Alex, mass:

If you're playing today could you throw some hands into this thread where you don't cbet in spots like this? Would help me a lot to look at some of your hands. Don't even bother converting or whatever.

Thanks.

I'd cbet both. I don't tend to cbet air when:
1. Opp is likely to check the turn a lot
2. Opp is likely to bet his made hands but check only air and weak hands

Otherwise if I have good equity I'll tend to cbet most of my air.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

I'd cbet both. I don't tend to cbet air when:
1. Opp is likely to check the turn a lot
2. Opp is likely to bet his made hands but check only air and weak hands

Otherwise if I have good equity I'll tend to cbet most of my air.

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I used to do this too, but when you cbet this much your turn barrels are either going to be a lot of air or they're not going to be as frequent and you will be exploitable vs. frequent c/ring

also against some fish that don't fold to cbets I think it's good to check back the flop with ace high even if you have to possibly call a bet on the turn they usually don't continue on the river

i dont think these are terrible bets but id very rarely cbet either

i wouldn't cbet hand one without a plan to bet like 85% of turns
i wouldn't cbet hand two without a plan to bet every blank turn and river

yea thats pretty much my strategy

Meh I think vs mediocre/weakish players these are std cbets... Vs better opponents I might check back more often

vs mediocre/weakish players hand 1 is a very marginal bet and hand 2 is 100% check back

I agree with what Renton said.

Hand 1 I'd only fire if I was ready to fire a lot of turn/rivers, and rep an overpair/strong hand.

Hand 2 is a type of board where we can never really just fire two barrels, since villains range is a ton of pair+insiders/draws that will call down to the river almost always. I prefer a ck back and peel turn and re-eval river line.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nutsinho

vs mediocre/weakish players hand 1 is a very marginal bet and hand 2 is 100% check back

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Why though? We can bet for value/protection without ever worrying about c/r bluffs...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nutsinho

vs mediocre/weakish players hand 1 is a very marginal bet and hand 2 is 100% check back

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Question: On hand 2 your folding to a turn bet on any card besides an Ace or 7?

I'm surprised by your answers.

Arguments for cbetting hand 1:

1. We have a decent amount of FE.
2. We have a hand with around 25% suck out equity against flop calling range, betting allows us to see 3 streets very easily.
3. No SD value.
4. Essentially, were never going to win this pot unless we hit a Q or T.
5. Reduces suckout equity of the fews hand we are beating but wont call a flop bet (splurg, cant think of any)

Arguments for cbetting hand 2:

1. There is some value in betting.
2. Will fold to a worse hand a small amount versus a turn bet.
3. Lessens reverse implied odds of hitting an Ace or 7.
4. Very unlikely to get bluffed off by a worse hand.


What factors are you taking into consideration here?

ISF: Just reading your last post I like pretty much all your reasons for betting in both hands and I'm now convinced that hand one isn't especially close as long as we're committed to firing 3 barrels a high % of the time once we do bet. So I think against anyone other than a major fish we should bet cbetting this flop and barrelling a lot.

Just out of interest:

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j1...2Aug070511.gif

The second hand is closer obviously and I think it would become a reasonably clear check behind if we made the flop two tone.

Edit: Did the range selection wrong.

I think villain misplayed this hand because once he checked back an ace high flop I knew he had a worse hand than mine a high % of the time (or a hand very similar to mine) and probably didn't want to get "exploited" by getting barreled off his hand

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button ($187.85)
Hero (SB) ($100)
BB ($81.50)
UTG ($29.95)
MP ($73.35)
CO ($143.85)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif
2 folds, CO bets $2, 1 fold, Hero calls $1.50, 1 fold

Flop: ($5) Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks

Turn: ($5) 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $3, CO calls $3

River: ($11) 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $8, CO calls $8

Total pot: $27 | Rake: $1.35

Results:
Hero had 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (one pair, Aces).
CO had Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (one pair, Kings).
Outcome: Hero won $25.65

I really don't think opp played it badly I think thats pretty standard. River is debatable for him but i dont have enough info to evaluate it.

It's close but given that people expect other people to check back TPNK a lot on these flops and hearts got there I think he should have folded the river without the read that iopq will bluff twice when someone misses a cbet.

Cbetting turns villains hand in a complete bluff on this board. It's true though that if he cbets he can check back turn and fold to a river bet especially on a A high flop. So he would have lost less to better hands.

Pros of villains line with his specific hand are (I think in order of importance on this A high dry board):
1. a turn card can come that give you a draw or something to which he can valuebet you
2. his line might seem suspect which make you call a turn bet lighter
3. you can't bluff raise him
4. he can snap a turn bluff from you (which on this specific board you might not do much, but maybe a turned draw)

I don't like villains call on the river because of the rivered flush.

If river was a blank I'd just call with some top of my range hands to randomize how often I want to call with my bluffcatcher hands. Only if I expect you to be bluffing there sometimes ofcourse.