KK- 4bet pot OOP vs. unknown

Villain was a complete unknown. 0/0 through 7 hands.

$0.25/$0.5 No Limit Holdem
9 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG MrAllMoney ($49.35)
UTG+1 Hero ($55.25)
MP1 Nystul ($47.00)
MP2 KommepC777 ($11.50)
MP3 Jaraz ($59.70)
CO okfireman38 ($52.25)
BTN lamort1985 ($8.50)
SB renull ($11.50)
BB snaggleflopper ($40.35)

Pre-flop: ($0.75, 9 players) Hero is UTG+1 :kd: :kc:
MrAllMoney calls $0.50, Hero raises to $2.25, 3 folds, okfireman38 raises to $7, 3 folds, MrAllMoney folds, Hero raises to $16, okfireman38 calls $9

Flop: :8d: :jc: :ac: ($33.25, 2 players)
Hero...?

B/f? Bet sizing if so? C/f? I'm assigned him a fairly tight range (QQ/AK) which are equally as likely here. I was pretty lost here...

so gay

i think this is a c/f then cry. If you try and assign him a wider range than what you did it only gets worse since JJ/AA are possible.. TT/AQ are very unlikely.

LAME

I like $11 bets here then shutting down.

What it accomplishes is avoids huge bets oop while also maintaining that the villain $9 call was a mistake.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BankItDrew

I like $11 bets here then shutting down.

What it accomplishes is avoids huge bets oop while also maintaining that the villain $9 call was a mistake.

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Could you explain that please?

Im such a noob...Thanks

1) Avoids larger bets oop on a bad flop - exactly what it says. Shows a lot of weakness, villain with weaker hand may decide to fire again on turn which makes our hand worth tossing away.

2) Villains $9 call preflop was a mistake - Let's say villain had a hand like AQ and had 3 outs. KK vs 3 outs is like worst case scenario for our hand. Villain hits their ace on the flop approx. 1 in 6 (16.5%). So, villain needs to take the $9 raise amount, multiply it by 6 ($54), and that is the average amount they need to take in after they hit their ace. This is the same sort of logic behind set mining.

Thus far in the hand, here's the math: (total pot preflop) $33.25 - (calling amount) $9 = $24.25, from the point of the 4bet villain needs to bring in on average another $29.75 (54 - 24.25).

So really, even if we bet like 4/5th pot on flop ($26.60) then shut down, villains preflop $9 is still a mistake long term.

I hope that clears things up on that front.

Also, it's important to note that it should be obvious that the highest +EV is probably not to bet $11 but to rather be able to hand read this specific villain very well. There could be a lot of value to be gained from playing this hand passively yet not folding. The $11 bet is just the best way to play it vs. a 'completely unknown.'

Thanks..great explanation

drew is a genius sometimes
but suuuuch a donk other times

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BankItDrew

Also, it's important to note that it should be obvious that the highest +EV is probably not to bet $11 but to rather be able to hand read this specific villain very well. There could be a lot of value to be gained from playing this hand passively yet not folding. The $11 bet is just the best way to play it vs. a 'completely unknown.'

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Is this ^^^ similar to the infamous gabe KK thread?

link plz

I can't seem to find it. It was several years ago in the SNG forum. He talked about check calling with KK on and A high flop. I figured someone would have posted the link.

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ce-t21766.html

I think it's a fairly different spot though because in this spot I want to c/f instead of c/bluffcatch. Also, this isn't really a hand against an unknown, I think there is a large difference between this being someone's first hand and it being their 8th hand having played none before.