NL100 the min 3bet

So i literally never fold to a min 3bet. This was the 2nd time i seen him do this, but the hand didnt go to SD.

Villian was 26/12/8 over 40ish hands no other reads



Poker Stars $0.50/$1 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

BB: $123.15
Hero (UTG): $128.90
MP: $103.55
CO: $90.10
BTN: $20.55
SB: $65.80

Pre Flop: ($1.50) Hero is UTG with K:diamond: Q:diamond:
Hero raises to $3, 1 fold, CO raises to $6, 3 folds, Hero calls $3

Flop: ($13.50) 7:spade: Q:spade: T:club: (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $8, Hero calls $8

Turn: ($29.50) 4:diamond: (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $20, Hero ??

I have encountered both excellent and terrible players utilizing the min 3-bet pre, and the same goes for min 2-bet on flop/turn.

Great players sometimes integrate this play into their metagame, because it is a cheap way of gaining both initiative and information. Terrible players utilize this play mostly with nut hands because they do not want you to fold.

I usually do not integrate this move into my metagame, but there is definitely a possibility to integrate it if we balance and polarize our ranges.

When I encounter players who utilize this move often, I min 4 bet pre and take away their initiative. If it is a donk who is minraising KK+, I fold all but pps and hands that have potential to bust those nuthands.

Your confusion on turn proves the power of this play if done correctly.

Nobody good min 3 bets for so many reasons.

As played I'd call turn reeval river.

True Meeloche- I said great players, not good players.

Part of manipulating good players is to make it awkward for them. They are used to solid ABC and all what it entails- and when they encounter minbets, weird betsizes, weird lines etc- they usually get confused and give off timing tells and make mistakes.

Playing non-standard poker forces our villains to adjust, and by estimating the intelligence of their adjustments we can make an assessment of their mental capabilities and use this to anticipate adjustments in future decisions.

Another concept which comes into play is "mirror effect". When someone is minbetting the nuts themselves they fear the minbet. When someone overbets the nuts, they fear the overbet.

Refer to my post about common problems in 3bet spots. Your problem is identical to the one I cover.

I don't really agree w/ much of anything Sir Pawnalot said at all.

Your confusion on the turn is only because you didn't make an assumption about his strength preflop.

If you called just because you always call min3bets. It's a really terrible reason.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir Pawnalot

Great players sometimes integrate this play into their metagame

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What do you mean by metagame here?


OP, I was looking through my biggest losers in PT the other day, and I found that there was a definite correlation between me calling min3bets and me losing money, especially in spots like the one you posted.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ash256

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir Pawnalot

Great players sometimes integrate this play into their metagame

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What do you mean by metagame here?


OP, I was looking through my biggest losers in PT the other day, and I found that there was a definite correlation between me calling min3bets and me losing money, especially in spots like the one you posted.

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link? i am a noob on this site

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mg0698

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ash256

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sir Pawnalot

Great players sometimes integrate this play into their metagame

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What do you mean by metagame here?


OP, I was looking through my biggest losers in PT the other day, and I found that there was a definite correlation between me calling min3bets and me losing money, especially in spots like the one you posted.

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link? i am a noob on this site

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http://www.pokertracker.com/products/PT3/

In my experience, min 3bets are huuuge hands >80% of the time.. especially from a seemingly tight/passive player.

As nitty as it might be, I might even fold this pre unless I've seen him min 3bet a few times already. This is reverse implied mania, especially considering he's doing it vs your utg open.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by griffey24

In my experience, min 3bets are huuuge hands >80% of the time.. especially from a seemingly tight/passive player.

As nitty as it might be, I might even fold this pre unless I've seen him min 3bet a few times already. This is reverse implied mania, especially considering he's doing it vs your utg open.

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The core of my poker philosophy is that everybody can be pwned when we apply the right tactics. The strategy is thus to always adapt and/or manipulate and the tactics changes with different table conditions.

The min 3- bet is a viable tactic under certain conditions. Like Griffey said, when a tight/passive player makes this play we almost assume the nuts. Therefore I use this play when my image is tight/weak and my opposition is an experienenced player.

It is difficult to play against a player who has the capacity to be everything from an extremely loose to an extremely tight player, and from very aggressive to embarrasingly passive.

Metagame is the realization and application of the fact that our current decision in a hand is strongly dependant upon past and future decisions.

Words cannot express the amount of tilt sirgetspwndalot posts produce. The closest thing I can think of is:

sdaihfuigsehrjbfhyegtafucjweagfyyw43u9igthedygvbns kjbvhusdagfub

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Muzzard

Words cannot express the amount of tilt sirgetspwndalot posts produce. The closest thing I can think of is:

sdaihfuigsehrjbfhyegtafucjweagfyyw43u9igthedygvbns kjbvhusdagfub

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i find it more like sahfsodfhqosidfijfqifjoiefjqoijfioqfj8u9e8, but meh, I digress.

It worries me that his fullhouse status may make people think he is wise & experienced and should be listened to. Perhaps he should be demoted? Maybe we could give hm a joker card?

I just gave a few of my thoughts about the preflop minimum 3-bet.

If you disagree- contend or ignore.

I may not be as experienced as you, but I reached 200 NL from a 20 USD roll in shorter time than most players- that being playing one table at a time.

Your posts tilt me this much:

Sir Pawnalot,

You write in a manner that is for the most part condescending and as if you are an all knowing poker master. This is the biggest reason people are telling you your tilts post them. Try writing as if you were speaking to an average person on the street, you'll get a lot more respect and people will actually take the time to argue their points against you.

That being said, your ability to think outside the box is a good one, though I think misguided. You made some kind of mention earlier about there definitely being a possibility to "balance and polarize your range" in the same spot. When you say this it clearly shows that you just don't understand either of the concepts and adds to why your style of writing aggravates people.

If your range is polarized, it's completely unbalanced because you have a feeling your opponent is going to be folding a large % of his range a large % of the time. To be balanced would be to incorporate many different hands for value and as bluffs to make sure that your opponent cannot take exploitative measures to beat your overall game plan.

Here's another: You claim to have made it all the way to 200nl! But also talk about things great players do and why. If you really understood it at that deep of a level you wouldn't phrase it like that nor would you presume to understand what's going on in such a great player's mind.

Just a couple things to think about.

/rant

Thank you for being rational.

Much of my thoughts about poker comes from what I have learned by myself. Therefore I sometimes use terms incorrectly, although I have a good grasp of the underlying concept.

When I said polarized and balanced, I was referring to a range which consists of very strong hands +speculative hands, nothing in between. For example 3-betting a polarized range would be AA, KK, QQ, AKs+ equal amount of combinations of hands like J9s, 56s, T8s for example.

I obviously had a different understanding of what balanced meant- and that is now cleared out.

I also understand 200 NL is still micro stakes, and that I have very little experience with great players, besides the articles, books and high stakes poker I have watched.

BTW, the way I talk to you guys here- is the same excact way I talk with people IRL. It is the reason I am ostracized from society and live a life in complete isolation. Maybe me being autistic explains it.

You are one of the posters I enjoyed and learned the most from. Your response shows why you made it to the higher stakes, and why people like Muzzard and DanaronG will stagnate in the micros.

Lol - I don't see you being very popular on this forum SirPawnalot.

I'll be honest though and say I thought two of the concepts you brought up and the thought process behind them were actually pretty good.

It's a pity your general tone is so condascending and superior, I think working on that might be even more important than poker if you want to be +EV in the game of life.

Are you really autistic? That may explain it.

Thank you noble007.

I try my best to behave acceptable, but it is very difficult. Me being brutally honest is hard for some people to accept.

Autism comes in a spectrum- and luckily I belong far to the left of the spectrum. I am not at all like "Rainman" who was a savant, but I do have my fair share of the difficulties that accompagny the "disorder".

I put on my best behaviour, but it is not enough- not here, not IRL. There is noone who knows better than me how socially retarded I am- but that is fine with me. I can accept myself, even if few others do.

There are friendly people on this forum, and they have given me the courage to get back into real life. It is very nice to know that not everybody hates you, and that there are people who can accept you for who you are.

That does not mean I should not strive to improve my social skills. I read books and articles about social interaction, and I hope I can one day become an accepted and contributing member of society.

Also, when "normal" people treat me as bad as they do, I am happy for not being normal. I just want to spread happiness, although I usually fail. People who have the capacity to spread happiness- yet fail to do so,- despise me more than those who does not have the capacity- yet tries.

Wish you all the best.

3bets from players with retarded stats like 26/12 are good hands less often than you'd think. This is because their ranges are skewed by the fact that they are limping/calling much more than they should

Thanks for the response.

It is much easier for me to communicate with you now that I understand that.

As you are aware your 'communication style' may alienate other posters despite your best efforts.

As for me though I will do my best to discuss the points you bring up rationally, and try to remind myself that it is not your intention to come across negatively.

All the best!

ummm, on topic:

I havent practiced what Pwnalot preaches, but I can see the logic in hes ideas.

And to some part I agree, it would be possible to exploit bad players (bad regulars even) at 100nl by tilting them one way or another this way. I just dont think it works on better players.


About the sidetrack about Pwnalots lack of social skills, well, your not alone.

Your better than me though, ive just decided that the rest of society can go screw itself, much easier.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by meeloche

Nobody good min 3 bets for so many reasons.

As played I'd call turn reeval river.

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what are some of the reasons?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gabe

Quote:

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Originally Posted by meeloche

Nobody good min 3 bets for so many reasons.

As played I'd call turn reeval river.

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what are some of the reasons?

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PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (3 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB ($5.74)
Hero (Button) ($10.50)
SB ($3.32)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif
Hero bets $0.12, 1 fold, BB raises to $0.30, Hero calls $0.18

Flop: ($0.62) 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
BB bets $0.25, Hero raises to $0.70, BB raises to $5.44 (All-In), Hero calls $4.74

Turn: ($11.50) 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($11.50) 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $11.50 | Rake: $0.55

Results:
Hero had 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (full house, nines over sixes).
BB had Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (two pair, Aces and nines).
Outcome: Hero won $10.95

thats a reason why doing it with only the very top of your range is bad because of the implied odds. imagine someone did this in position vs you and you always thought you had implied odds to call with 69o, so u just c/f everytime you missed. you would be easily exploited.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gabe

thats a reason why doing it with only the very top of your range is bad because of the implied odds. imagine someone did this in position vs you and you always thought you had implied odds to call with 69o, so u just c/f everytime you missed. you would be easily exploited.

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if he's not doing it with the top of his range, then obviously I wouldn't c/f when I missed, I'd c/r a lot of flops

"obviously" thats your 2nd level fish answer. imagine if i was the button min 3 betting you. would you still call with 96o? would you still plan to just check raise me alot to make up for the bad preflop calls? remember the question i asked was "what are some reasons why nobody good min 3 bets?" i was trying to make the point that min 3 betting when you play good postflop isn't bad at all.

Getting people who play worse postflop in a bigger postflop pot seems fine yes (as longs as there's room to manouvre postflop ofcourse)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gabe

"obviously" thats your 2nd level fish answer. imagine if i was the button min 3 betting you. would you still call with 96o? would you still plan to just check raise me alot to make up for the bad preflop calls? remember the question i asked was "what are some reasons why nobody good min 3 bets?" i was trying to make the point that min 3 betting when you play good postflop isn't bad at all.

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no but it doesn't mean when I flop just one 9 I would c/f, I would probably still call flop and see a turn because a lot of min 3b are also AK/AQ/AJ type hands that miss a 9xx flop
also, against people who are decent I might dump 96o OOP and call IP

not to mention that I would call with hands like 22-66 which are usually folds to normal sized 3bs and I would be EV+ making that call

but if I notice you always min3b garbage and 3b your value hands normally (since obviously we've established that it's terrible to min3b AA) then I could even 4b you a decent amount

wastinghisbreath Gabe

did I do it right?

iopq, which part of "bad preflop calls" don't you get?

welcome back, gabe, btw.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Warpe

iopq, which part of "bad preflop calls" don't you get?

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I don't get wtf you're talking about

Quote:

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Originally Posted by iopq

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Warpe

iopq, which part of "bad preflop calls" don't you get?

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I don't get wtf gabe's talking about

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fyp

technically my calls are good because I have position and I only need to get 26% of the pot size back post-flop to be able to call
I have a lot of opportunities to float or raise in position (which is more scary imo)
but OOP yes I fold the bottom of my range like 96o

in HU it's pretty standard to have a very wide calling range against people with a high 3b%
so even if he goes 3bb->11bb a lot of people call with hands like 96s and dump 96o
so if you min3b 30% of your hands I can see defending anything you choose to open

and I played someone today who min3b about every time they opened the pot and they had a lot of garbage in their range so why should I fold

if you min3b like 10% of the time you're just fucking your value range since that's going to be like a third of what you min3b and you're not playing it optimally
and if you min3b only garbage then your min3b range is garbage again and I can call with anything I open again and your flatting range is pretty retardedly weighted towards small pps and easy to play against

I know it's popular to argue against me, but min3bing might be good in a vacuum sometimes, but not good as part of your overall strategy
I mean look at the posts in this thread
it's spenda/warpe contributing nothing but one-liners and not actually arguing, gabe is calling me a fish and meeloche decided to distance himself from his original post by dodging the thread

I think its all well and good to say that a top player could make exploitive use of min 3betting preflop, but I'm not sure that there's any level of skill that could overcome the advantages of going even 2bb's more than minimum. It is pretty hard to beat preflop fold equity, and regardless of how poorly you manipulate your opponent into playing after the flop, you still gave him the value of a flop, and that's pretty huge.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gabe

Quote:

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Originally Posted by meeloche

Nobody good min 3 bets for so many reasons.

As played I'd call turn reeval river.

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what are some of the reasons?

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I don't think min 3 betting is necessarily bad in certain spots I just think making it 9 or 10 bb's is just better. Why not play a bigger pot in position when I don't think somebody's calling range changes all that much once they realize you didn't misclick. I think making it 7 or 8 bb is probably better than min 3 betting if you want to increase his calling frequency oop.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by iopq

technically my calls are good because I have position and I only need to get 26% of the pot size back post-flop to be able to call
I have a lot of opportunities to float or raise in position (which is more scary imo)
but OOP yes I fold the bottom of my range like 96o

in HU it's pretty standard to have a very wide calling range against people with a high 3b%
so even if he goes 3bb->11bb a lot of people call with hands like 96s and dump 96o
so if you min3b 30% of your hands I can see defending anything you choose to open

and I played someone today who min3b about every time they opened the pot and they had a lot of garbage in their range so why should I fold

if you min3b like 10% of the time you're just fucking your value range since that's going to be like a third of what you min3b and you're not playing it optimally
and if you min3b only garbage then your min3b range is garbage again and I can call with anything I open again and your flatting range is pretty retardedly weighted towards small pps and easy to play against

I know it's popular to argue against me, but min3bing might be good in a vacuum sometimes, but not good as part of your overall strategy
I mean look at the posts in this thread
it's spenda/warpe contributing nothing but one-liners and not actually arguing, gabe is calling me a fish and meeloche decided to distance himself from his original post by dodging the thread

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i called you a fish because you wrote 'obviously' in one of your replies to make it sound like you knew what you were talking about. the original point was that a good player min 3 betting in position isn't as easy to handle as you might think. you posting a hand where you stack a fish was irrelevant, "obviously". renton and meeloche both nailed it so maybe instead of trying to always sound like you know everything (obviously you don't), you could reread their posts and learn something.

even if I don't know what I'm talking about I don't see why you have to come off confrontational and instead of explaining you point start attacking me

and c/ring a lot of flops seems to be a standard way to defend against someone who is 3bing a lot when the flop texture hits your perceived range harder
but you can just say I don't know what I'm talking about without arguing your point

and I'm sure that min3b could be EV+, but it doesn't make it the most EV+ play
so the original point that good players don't min3b is basically arguing that there are bet sizes better than the minimum for a threebet and I'm not sure you can disprove that

ha ok man. realize the only reason i called you out at first was because i asked a question and you posted a hand that had nothing to do with it (despite you thinking it did)

SSNL has missed gabe.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gabe

ha ok man. realize the only reason i called you out at first was because i asked a question and you posted a hand that had nothing to do with it (despite you thinking it did)

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I only posted it because villain is JustinSKS from this forum actually

lol, no thats not the only reason you posted it

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gabe

lol, no thats not the only reason you posted it

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that's right I made fun of him for his bet sizing (that wasn't actually a min3b but close to it) and I will continue to do so in the future

hi, i'm IOPQ!

welcome back gabe