chop or bluff?

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10-02-2009, 02:30 AM
sinister1

chop or bluff?

Hand is from Bodog so its from memory, but this is more about the situation than this specific hand. I want to know if turning a made hand into a bluff is a good thing if you think you are chopping a lot of the time. Sorry if this is a standard concept, I just had not thought much about it until today.

Villain is standard bodonk who basically limps ~90% of his range (which includes many kings) and then calls any pf raise, overvalues tp, etc. If I had to guess I would say his stats are like 40/10/x.

Bodog 6max NL, BB: $.25
UTG (~$25)
MP (???)
CO (???)
BTN (???)
SB (???)
Hero (BB) (~$30)
Dealt to Hero: :kh: :jc:
UTG calls $.25, MP calls $.25, 2 folds SB calls $.15, Hero checks

Flop ($1): :kd: :qs: :6h:
SB checks, Hero bets $.75, UTG raises to $2, 2 folds, Hero calls $1.25

Turn ($5): :2h:
Hero checks, UTG bets $3, Hero calls $3

River ($11): :2d:

Hero checks, UTG bets $6, Hero shoves

p.s. I know my line looks retarded but folks at this level do not have good hand reading skills.
10-02-2009, 02:48 AM
daven

do you know if you are shoving for value or as bluff?
please enlighten us
10-02-2009, 03:17 AM
bikes

seems like a pretty std push.
10-02-2009, 03:27 AM
dsaxton

Hmm, this nets you a smallish half pot when he folds a K, but otherwise either gains nothing or loses a stack. I have a hard time believing this is a good play.
10-02-2009, 06:05 AM
Andypandy

Seems terrible. Though he's a donk, he can easily have u beat. I would have just c/c river. I would often squeese pf for value.
10-02-2009, 08:25 AM
griffey24

If we were PFR and we had cbet two streets and villain called us twice, I'd like a c/shove a lot more in that spot. In that spot if he bets the river its much more likely he's on air or Kx and we could potentially take him off a chop.

In this situation he can definitely have a hand we're not at all chopping with (and that's not at all folding), AA, AK, KQ, KKK, QQQ. c/bombing here is nooo good.

I'd even like it more if we donked flop and turn and he just flatted us twice, which would discount a some of the above range I mentioned. But after he raises our donk, bets turn and bets river... umm... nooo.
10-02-2009, 12:50 PM
meeloche

This isn't as clear of a chop as you think so I wouldn't jam.
10-02-2009, 01:37 PM
Renton

would rather fold than shove, seems like he has AA or has flopped two pair a decent bit
10-02-2009, 02:48 PM
bikes

wouldnt he bet the river bigger if he had AA or a non counterfitted 2 pair?
10-02-2009, 02:51 PM
sinister1

Quote:

Originally Posted by daven

do you know if you are shoving for value or as bluff?
please enlighten us

I doubt I will be enlightening anyone in the SHNL forum, but I was doing this as a bluff because I believed I would be chopping a very large percentage of the time here and thought it might be better than check/calling. From most of the responses I can see that I was wrong about that.

Would any of you make a move like this in a different situation where you thought that you were chopping or is this just a stupid concept?
10-02-2009, 03:02 PM
dsaxton

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bbickes

wouldnt he bet the river bigger if he had AA or a non counterfitted 2 pair?

No reason to think so. These are donks, they often underbet nut hands like A-A or A-K because they "don't want to scare you off." Also, the pair on board is deuces, so villain only got counterfeited if hero has A-A.
10-02-2009, 03:03 PM
griffey24

Quote:

Originally Posted by sinister1

Would any of you make a move like this in a different situation where you thought that you were chopping or is this just a stupid concept?

The times to make these moves is when the hand you're trying get them off of (the chop) is the top of their range.

A similar situation would be if you were the PFR from EP and raised KQ, villain calls on Btn. The flop came Q52 and he called your bet. Turn 5 and he calls and river 5 again. In this spot a c/shove could be ok since Qx is the top of his range (and he might bet?) and you have AA/KK/QQQ in your range.

The same hand played out differently, villain raises MP and you call KQ in blinds. Flop comes Q52 and you c/c, turn 5 you c/c and river 5. This is a bad spot to c/shove since Qx is the top of your range now and he can have AA/KK/QQQ/Qx and air. c/shove here would be a disaster, since his air is folding and everything else beats you. You may luckout some smallll % of the time he convinces himself you have quads.
10-02-2009, 03:04 PM
sinister1

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bbickes

wouldnt he bet the river bigger if he had AA or a non counterfitted 2 pair?

This is what I thought also. I believe he woulda bet more on the turn as well because most Bodogers at this level tend to spaz out with big hands on the turn especially when there are two draws out there no matter how unlikely Hero is to have them. I heavily discounted QQ+, 66 and KQ from his range after seeing his turn and river bet sizing.