let's talk about open-limping the SB

Most people don't defend their BB nearly enough facing a raise from the BB. Against someone with a wide range, in position, getting a discount and closing the action, you should defend even more hands than you think you should.

If someone folds too much in the BB, I just raise anything I want to play in the SB, but against tough players I've started open limping a lot. The reason is I think even hands as strong as A9o, JTo, 56s etc. may not be strong enough to open-raise profitably against a good player. Instead of just giving people 80% walks though, I like to open-limp some hands. Many people's first reaction is to assume I am a weak player and raise with ATC, which isn't a bad thing at all for me as long I mix in some limp-calls and limp-reraises with strong hands and some limp-reraise bluffs.

I still don't have nearly enough evidence to say whether this strategy is good, but this thread is for talking about the dynamics of open-limping the SB, and for posting standard and non-standard hands that come up.

It's good with any hand that can profitably limp call but can't stand a 3-bet, and it's one of a lot of standard adjustments I make against players who are playing exploitatively in blind vs blind.

No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button ($203)
Hero (SB) ($400.25)
BB ($200)
UTG ($203)
MP ($217)

Hand 1: I think this is probably a limp-fold preflop, but as played should I bet, check-call, maybe even check-fold the river?
No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button ($203)
Hero (SB) ($400.25)
BB ($200)
UTG ($203)
MP ($217)
Preflop: Hero is SB with Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif
3 folds, Hero calls $1, BB raises to $8, Hero calls $6

Flop: ($16) 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $11, Hero calls $11

Turn: ($38) 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, BB checks

River: ($38) Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero?

Hand 2: I made a clear error here by check-raising the flop. I am going to get barreled a ton on this board and I should either limp-raise preflop or else continue the slowplay on this board.
No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB ($200)
UTG ($552)
MP ($212.15)
Button ($223.90)
Hero (SB) ($399.60)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif
3 folds, Hero calls $1, BB raises to $8, Hero calls $6

Flop: ($16) 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $10, Hero raises to $28, 1 fold

Total pot: $36

in the 1st hand - what do we do if no Ace drops, but say a K does?
isn't this the whole prob and why it's standard to let SB go or raise?

like Renton (in a rounabout way) said it depends on the game dynamics. I can't ever see an arguement for having not been at table long and limping in the small blind (though thinking about it, it could work on the level of making u look bad)

I can see the merits of limping the SB, especially vs someone very aggro that will most certainly raise us. Feel like its probably best with hands like QJ/KQish that will play well/easily OOP to an aggro player and that don't like getting 3bet too much.

My problem with limping is that I'd still rather be raising my strong strong hands, since this same aggro player will likely 3bet us, and we want a chance to 4bet/get it in vs him. I'd rather raise these hands than having to worrying about balancing some limp/calling or limp/raising range with these hands.

I'll have to think about this more, though my gut instinct is that we'll limp a lot. We'll call raises OOP and then either c/f too much or c/r and get owned later by someone aggro.

FoxwoodsFiend went over this briefly in one of his latest videos on DC where he open limped A5o bvb.

I think it definately has merits, despite what many people may say about how you should 'never' open limp.

I feel like the only time I'd consider doing it is vs a fish that isn't full stacked when I want to play a super wide range vs him even if I'm oop. The problem with limping the sb vs anybody reasonable is your gonna get abused a fair amount and at the end of the day your gonna be playing a pot oop without the initiative which is probably the least profitable way you can play poker. Any hand that you are justifying limping like AJ or A9 or J10 I'd be comfortable raising.

If you are raising a solid range in the sb and are playing well vs 3 bets ie 4 betting, flatting etc then people will mess with you less than if you limp.

Hand 1: I c/c river to avoid getting blown off and to get value from weaker. I can find a grudging fold against certain opps depending on reads and bet sizing.

Hand 2: I don't like limp-raise pre b/c it's so transparent. I'd rather just put in a standard raise pre.

Remember I suck, tho.

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Originally Posted by meeloche

I feel like the only time I'd consider doing it is vs a fish that isn't full stacked when I want to play a super wide range vs him even if I'm oop. The problem with limping the sb vs anybody reasonable is your gonna get abused a fair amount and at the end of the day your gonna be playing a pot oop without the initiative which is probably the least profitable way you can play poker. Any hand that you are justifying limping like AJ or A9 or J10 I'd be comfortable raising.

If you are raising a solid range in the sb and are playing well vs 3 bets ie 4 betting, flatting etc then people will mess with you less than if you limp.

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The thing is though, you don't open limp because its more profitable than raising; you open limp because its profitable IN ADDITION to raising.

Theoretically there are certain hands you could profitably limp, and although you could profitably raise those hands in a vacuum, weaker less limpable hands are probably just as ok to raise.

Hands like 22-66, Axo, offsuit broadways and such are probably profitable to limp vs most. They are also profitable to raise. However they play pretty poorly on most flops when called and often have to check/give up. They also can't stand 3-bets.

Also, I think in a vacuum almost any hand is gonna be profitable to open for 3x in bvb, seeing as the BB's range is any two cards. The problem is that once we are opening more and more hands, we're gonna get adjusted to until any open without a top 15% hand is gonna be unprofitable.

So say Player A is opening the top 25% of hands and folding the rest, and doing well.

And now say Player B takes the same strategy as Player A, only he takes out 10% of those hands and limps them (he chooses hands like I discussed that can't stand to be 3-bet and plays poorly when called), then repopulates the raising range with 10% weaker cards.

Now Player B is opening 25% and limping 10%, playing 35% of his holdings in total, presumably each for a profit. Surely Player B makes more money (read: loses less) from the SB than Player A, considering he's playing 40% more hands.

i think if you're open limping you have to also be doing it with a wide range of hands and be willing to limp 3bet

i watched a raptor video where Sauce annoys the shit out of raptor with limps and limp 3bets from the SB


I think you can throw it in as a creative thing to mess with other regs but I doubt its really a staple

Quote:

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Originally Posted by meeloche

The problem with limping the sb vs anybody reasonable is your gonna get abused a fair amount and at the end of the day your gonna be playing a pot oop without the initiative which is probably the least profitable way you can play poker. Any hand that you are justifying limping like AJ or A9 or J10 I'd be comfortable raising.

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As long as you ensure that your ranges on most board textures are robust enough that they can't autobarrel you, I don't think they will be able to abuse you although most players will certainly try to do so.

Also, like Renton said, I'm not necessarily saying that limping is more profitable than raising with any specific hand, I'm saying that if I just raised with all the hands I want to play, I'd end up raising 35%+ from the SB and then I would get abused by anyone half-decent.

I just think you're making your life more difficult when you have all these narrow different ranges for a spot that you should be playing pretty tight in anyway. Your not gonna make money in the sb but I feel like your gonna lose less if you have one widish balanced range instead of trying to balance a raising range a limping range and a limp re raising range. I wouldn't be looking for a way to play more pots oop unless the bb was a super fish or something but even then raising is gonna be more profitable than limping.

One more thing is I don't understand why you want to play more pots oop anyway? Just open like 100% from the button if you have an itch to play more hands.

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Originally Posted by meeloche

One more thing is I don't understand why you want to play more pots oop anyway? Just open like 100% from the button if you have an itch to play more hands.

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I always thought of it as a truism that our goal is to maximize the number of hands we can play profitably. If I'm making a profit with A8o by open-limping it, and you're just chucking it, how is that not giving me a better winrate than you?

Widening my button range might be a good idea but it doesn't have much to do with this thread.

I think most good regs deal with the SB vs BB disadvantage is simply opening a very tight range 4x preflop. This is what I've seen in the games ive played in and it makes sense to me. 4x a strong range seems to fix our SB problems, as I think it will make A9o, jto, 65s more +EV than limping.

I feel like either what I've posted in this thread must be blatantly wrong, or that 80% of the people posting in this thread have completely missed the point.

a ton of people are doing this from time to time in high stakes games, self included. i think it sucks vs very good players but is good against some of the others. against someone who is playing poker well i think opening ur UTG+1 range and folding the rest is approximately the best strategy. However, below 5/10 i think one could play wider than my cutoff range profitably, and limping could be an option with a large portion of that range depending on the opponent.

anyone seen the Raptor video where Sauce does it?

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Originally Posted by mcatdog

Quote:

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Originally Posted by meeloche

One more thing is I don't understand why you want to play more pots oop anyway? Just open like 100% from the button if you have an itch to play more hands.

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I always thought of it as a truism that our goal is to maximize the number of hands we can play profitably. If I'm making a profit with A8o by open-limping it, and you're just chucking it, how is that not giving me a better winrate than you?

Widening my button range might be a good idea but it doesn't have much to do with this thread.

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I would open A8o fwiw probably the bottom of the axo that I'd open but that's irrelevant. My point is if you can make a profit by limping A8o vs a certain opponent I'm sure you can at least equal that if not increase it by opening it. You would have to have a pretty specific read on an opponent where limping would be better. Generally I would just open or fold vs competent ppl.

Another hijack point is I'm positive everybody should widen their button opening range myself included.

I've recently been raising 3x very wide from the sb against a lot of players. It seems to be working ok, as long as the players are not rring too much and can fold on flops. I basically cbet all good flops for me (think isf theorem) and get creative on ones that are bad. Against clowns im 4xing and playing tight. I don't really limp, but as i've said before there's basically reasons to do any action if your up against the right player.

I'm thinking though with card removal and such raising that much out of the sb might not be such a hot idea. But against guys playing 18/16 or around this it's retarded not to raise the shit out of them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by meeloche

Another hijack point is I'm positive everybody should widen their button opening range myself included.

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QFMuthfuckingT!

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Originally Posted by Renton

Quote:

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Originally Posted by meeloche

I feel like the only time I'd consider doing it is vs a fish that isn't full stacked when I want to play a super wide range vs him even if I'm oop. The problem with limping the sb vs anybody reasonable is your gonna get abused a fair amount and at the end of the day your gonna be playing a pot oop without the initiative which is probably the least profitable way you can play poker. Any hand that you are justifying limping like AJ or A9 or J10 I'd be comfortable raising.

If you are raising a solid range in the sb and are playing well vs 3 bets ie 4 betting, flatting etc then people will mess with you less than if you limp.

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Hands like 22-66, Axo, offsuit broadways and such are probably profitable to limp vs most. They are also profitable to raise. However they play pretty poorly on most flops when called and often have to check/give up. They also can't stand 3-bets.

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I'd advocate that a range as narrow and medium-weak as this could easily be exploited by inflating every postflop pot.

Wouldn't it be sexier to take that range, add 50% of 77-AAs, 50% of 56s-T9s, 50% of 75s-J9s and limp3bet the whole lot?

Of course, if your playing a 16/14 masser you can open 100% of SB's lol.

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Originally Posted by Ash256

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Originally Posted by Renton

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Originally Posted by meeloche

I feel like the only time I'd consider doing it is vs a fish that isn't full stacked when I want to play a super wide range vs him even if I'm oop. The problem with limping the sb vs anybody reasonable is your gonna get abused a fair amount and at the end of the day your gonna be playing a pot oop without the initiative which is probably the least profitable way you can play poker. Any hand that you are justifying limping like AJ or A9 or J10 I'd be comfortable raising.

If you are raising a solid range in the sb and are playing well vs 3 bets ie 4 betting, flatting etc then people will mess with you less than if you limp.

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Hands like 22-66, Axo, offsuit broadways and such are probably profitable to limp vs most. They are also profitable to raise. However they play pretty poorly on most flops when called and often have to check/give up. They also can't stand 3-bets.

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I'd advocate that a range as narrow and medium-weak as this could easily be exploited by inflating every postflop pot.

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Which is easily exploitable by adjustments on our end.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ash256

Wouldn't it be sexier to take that range, add 50% of 77-AAs, 50% of 56s-T9s, 50% of 75s-J9s and limp3bet the whole lot?

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Seems like massive overkill. I just don't see why we have to be able to show up with a big pair in order to make limping certain hands ok.

Coming from a live player:
Limping SB is good to exploit aggresive opponents who raise too much on your limp. It is also good not to bloat pots OOP against aggressive or good post flop players.

Against weak players who fold too much postflop and dont raise much I will just raise more and limp even more speculative hands. (Probably see this more live)

I really don't understand why you would just fold or raise from the SB. You are going to be OOP on every street, which is SUCH a disadvantage. Seriously, what are you going to do when you raise A7o, cbet a dry board and get floated. The pot gets huge in a crappy situation. Limping could have encouraged BB to raise worse trash than yours AND you can maneuver in a smaller pot.

I also don't see why you would fold A7o from the SB either, i
t has too much value as top pair/ ace high etc. Like MCAT said.. why fold a profitable situation.

In live cash games I'd just try to chop though because of the rake. If you complete the SB at 2-5 and the BB checks back then $4 or $5 is gone right there and you have no chance of turning a profit. I don't see how open-limping live could work unless you're playing a game with a time charge.

I most play 1-2, and the pot gets raked at 1$ / $10 in the pot so its not that bad. Also, the rake is the same for $2/$5, 1$/10 and a max of $5.

I thnk it is still worth it with our rake structure, but not the one you are talking about.

i never do it against fish but i think its cool to mix in sometimes. in the last 400k hands ive done it about 80 hands.

so many regs have standard lines they use against fish that they also try to use against regs who make seemingly fishy plays (like open limping the SB). you just gotta know what those plays are and exploit them. try open limping a wide range for a session and c/r every flop when the person raised preflop, theres just not much they can do to fight back if their range is too wide and they are unsure of what type of range to put you on since many good players don't use that line

cool

$0.25/$0.5 No Limit Holdem
4 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
CO ($50)
BTN ($50)
Hero ($50.25)
BB ($68.85)

Pre-Flop: ($0.75, 4 players) Hero is SB :9h: :kh:
2 folds, Hero calls $0.25, BB raises to $3, Hero calls $2.50

Flop: :as: :7s: :3d: ($6, 2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $4, Hero raises to $12, BB folds

Final Pot: $22

Hero wins $21.35 ( won +$6.35 )

BB lost -$7

hes been really aggro, cbetting a f'ton, 3betting alot pre etc. my image is tight/weak probably, early in sesh. given my squeeky image i can't see him not giving my line a ton of credit and there's really nothing he ca do since he has a ton of air in his range. by now I guess I've gained respect to start liberally raising his blind.

generally if you have a big postflop edge or the guy is playing a bunch of tables this gets better.

just remember to balance, when i do this i have a limp/call, limp/fold and limp/RR range but no open raising range.