tptk on wet board

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10-07-2009, 06:49 PM
meeloche

tptk on wet board

villain is a 20/16 regular who doesn't always play 3/6. I think 2/4 is is main game. He generally doesn't really get out of line from what I've seen although I'm sure he's capable of it. He's not the type to 4 bet or fold preflop.

I guess my flop check is debatable in hindsight I probably should have bet I just felt like at the time we didn't really have any dynamic and he's probably gonna perceive a bet to be pretty strong.

As played is c/f too nitty on turn?

No-Limit Hold'em, $6.00 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

UTG ($1200.75)
MP ($591)
CO ($417)
Button ($675.45)
SB ($1020.25)
Hero (BB) ($863)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif
1 fold, MP bets $18, 3 folds, Hero raises $54, MP calls $42

Flop: ($123) 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $72, Hero calls $72

Turn: ($267) 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $156
10-07-2009, 07:26 PM
griffey24

I feel like you never play AA, JJ, TT, JT, AJ or KQ like this so you're gonna get owned here pretty hard c/c on this board.

I'd just b/f flop. It's not like you don't have a lot of hands that are willing to stack off on this board. You shouldn't be getting bluffed too much.
10-07-2009, 07:41 PM
Alexos

yeah id b/f flop

as played u prob have odds to peel another street. AQ is in his range as well...
10-07-2009, 11:50 PM
Marshall28

If you have position, I like your check a lot better. But for the reasons grif and alex gave I agree w/ them that bet/folding is much better.
10-09-2009, 02:22 PM
mixchange

Gotta bet/fold flop as others said. Hand really hard to play this way and we have to have a pretty awesome read on his bluffing frequency

You are gaining some from bluffs, prolly not much more from AQ, but I think you end up value towning yourself way too often here from his KQ/tt/jj. Plus, any broadway card can totally screw you if he checks behind flop, which I think he might if he got frisky say with QJ. So I think you get valuetowned too much (pretty hard for him not to raise his nut range on this flop right?)
10-09-2009, 02:49 PM
gabe

i would never in a million years fold. it looks like you have QQ/KK so the guy should just bet everything. i would keep trying to look like you have QQ/KK and call here and c/c all the rivers, except maybe Q or K which i would think they wouldn't be betting too much anyway
10-09-2009, 03:16 PM
griffey24

Quote:

Originally Posted by gabe

i would never in a million years fold. it looks like you have QQ/KK so the guy should just bet everything. i would keep trying to look like you have QQ/KK and call here and c/c all the rivers, except maybe Q or K which i would think they wouldn't be betting too much anyway

I agree with your point, but doesn't this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by meeloche

He generally doesn't really get out of line from what I've seen although I'm sure he's capable of it.

outweigh the fact that our hand looks like QQ/KK here? I just feel like we're gonna get owned here c/c if villain has good bluffing frequencies. It doesn't matter that our hand looks like QQ/KK if he's not gonna get out of line with that knowledge anyhow. I can see villain betting AQ again, but I woulnd't imagine someone barreling too hard with A6 or something.

I guess its possible to c/c turn, c/f riv here. Not sure really.
10-09-2009, 03:28 PM
mixchange

Quote:

Originally Posted by griffey24

Quote:

Originally Posted by gabe

i would never in a million years fold. it looks like you have QQ/KK so the guy should just bet everything. i would keep trying to look like you have QQ/KK and call here and c/c all the rivers, except maybe Q or K which i would think they wouldn't be betting too much anyway

I agree with your point, but doesn't this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by meeloche

He generally doesn't really get out of line from what I've seen although I'm sure he's capable of it.

outweigh the fact that our hand looks like QQ/KK here? I just feel like we're gonna get owned here c/c if villain has good bluffing frequencies. It doesn't matter that our hand looks like QQ/KK if he's not gonna get out of line with that knowledge anyhow. I can see villain betting AQ again, but I woulnd't imagine someone barreling too hard with A6 or something.

I guess its possible to c/c turn, c/f riv here. Not sure really.

Yeah i agree a lot with you here. I think if he doesn't get out of line a lot, at most you can get 2 streets out of his bluffing range, not 3.

Sounds like Gabe is projecting the way HE would play it as villain... and it would work ;p
10-09-2009, 03:36 PM
meeloche

Yeah the point of my flop check is to put AK into the top of my range for checking the flop instead of having it near the bottom of my value range on the flop. I probably shouldn't have done it vs somebody who I don't have a better read on as far as inducing bluffs go but just to bet flop because its easier to play isn't enough for me to accept it as a better line. Vs somebody very capable checking is not going to be good because of the fact that griffey mentioned their frequency to be able to own you is going to be very high.
10-09-2009, 04:51 PM
gabe

on my account, folding anytime is super bad. who is villain?
10-09-2009, 07:03 PM
meeloche

FTGU or something like that.
10-10-2009, 10:24 AM
IowaSkinsFan

C/cing flop and c/fing turn seems like the worst line you could take here tbh. We should either c/c down, b/f, b/c, or c/f the flop/bet every subsequent streett, and each of these decisions seem just as good as the others.

I'm going with c/f flop and bet two streets if he checks behind. It's the only way we have any chance of playing against a range that consists of all hands we're beating.
10-10-2009, 12:24 PM
gabe

folding is crazy. when you have ak and flop top top and check it you don't look for ways to fold it in today's midstakes games
10-10-2009, 01:51 PM
meeloche

Yeah definitely. My read on this guy for some reason was that he'd be playing pretty tight and straight forward and didn't expect him to try and barrel me off of it. I figured I'd get him to stab once or twice then I'd value bet and he'd be able to call me pretty light.
10-10-2009, 02:22 PM
Renton

i'd c/c again for sure, but i don't think ppl have the stones to shove river as a bluff in a spot where u could so easily be saying fuck it
10-10-2009, 05:55 PM
Ravageur

this is standard advice and i didn't read replies, but b/fold seems best. As played I think the turn is a call and i think c/calling any non club/k river is probably fine too. I'm thinking about whether leading the turn here is an option? not sure what ppl would think about this, something like bet/call turn because i think you can definitely induce shoves from draws as well as AQ. This might be awful though.
10-12-2009, 02:32 AM
sauce123

nothing to add, b/f.

your range is too strong here for him to profitably bluffraise, if hes smart enough to bluffraise this board 25% of the time or something and get u to fold AK, AQ, KK, QQ and bluffs then tip your cap to him.
10-12-2009, 08:19 PM
bjsaust

Quote:

Originally Posted by griffey24

Quote:

Originally Posted by gabe

i would never in a million years fold. it looks like you have QQ/KK so the guy should just bet everything. i would keep trying to look like you have QQ/KK and call here and c/c all the rivers, except maybe Q or K which i would think they wouldn't be betting too much anyway

I agree with your point, but doesn't this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by meeloche

He generally doesn't really get out of line from what I've seen although I'm sure he's capable of it.

outweigh the fact that our hand looks like QQ/KK here?

I dunno, I dont see betting when the PFR checks as 'getting out of line'. Seems pretty standard from all bar the most conservative players.
10-12-2009, 09:16 PM
griffey24

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjsaust

I dunno, I dont see betting when the PFR checks as 'getting out of line'. Seems pretty standard from all bar the most conservative players.

No, betting flop isn't out of line at all. But continuing on the turn once called, and potentially jamming river would be somewhat out of line!