No I'm not. You have yet to prove you're able to give quality advice, so until then, ask questions don't answer them.
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No I'm not. You have yet to prove you're able to give quality advice, so until then, ask questions don't answer them.
This.Quote:
Originally Posted by Micro2Macro
Me and m2m both did our time posting hands, asking questions about spots, etc. (Note the 1k+ posts lol) Is it so much to ask that you don't put up advice that is total BS, (like shoving AA PF, yea its funny but for a serious player, you really shouldn't have to do that to extract value) and others who can actually help his progress along answer his questions?
Don't get me wrong, post your advice, but friggin tell the OP that you are new as well, and that your advice is best taken with a grain of salt? The good part about you posting, is that others like me, m2m, and stax can come and help correct you where your logic is flawed.
No one is being a dick, people are just sick of a 2nl "grinder" coming in and acting like he knows better than some 25nl/50nl/100nl regs. It's ridiculous. Curb your ego please.
This is obviously going to get a response, isn't it? One along the lines of "Don't tell me what I can and can't do, you cocksucking bitch". It's inevitable. If you don't like the advice I give, that's fine. Tear it to pieces like the intelligent wankers on this site do. But don't try to silence me, it'll have the opposite effect. And don't start copying my posts and saying "I didn't read it, but disregard it" and then try to tell me you're not being a dick, because that, my friend, is exactly what you're being. You've dereailed a thread that I didn't start in order to have another pop at me, which is really big of you. Well done.Quote:
Originally Posted by Micro2Macro
Yes, people are being dicks, and it's not me who has the fucking ego. I'm giving advice. Take it or fucking leave it. People give better advice. Take that or leave it. But no-one, I repeat no-one, has the right to tell me not to share my opinions on a public fucking forum. If you don't like it, tough shit. I'm not going anywhere. Everyone, from people who only learned hand ranks yesterday, to those playing for 4 billion years, is equal here. That's me, micro, stacks, op, everyfucker. So, assess the situation, and ask yourself, who's got the fucking ego? Who's telling me to shut up so everyone else can give advice? Fuck the lot of you.Quote:
Originally Posted by dranger7070
i disagree with this completely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Micro2Macro
some of the best learning comes from giving your thoughts on a situation and finding that consensus disagrees, then beginning to understand why. It is also important to realise that interesting and insightful ideas can come from anywhere, from 2nl grinder to 5knl grinders - maybe not evenly distributed of course ;)
however, it is also essential to note that people need to be able to take criticism comfortably, especially when it has been provided constructively. Slanging matches benefit nobody.
daeyeth, it's a shame that your thread has been hijacked. It would be great if a mod could get rid of the posts you deem redundant to this thread.
etc
blah blah blah another daven rant
I think this can be let go, pretty sure he admitted to being wrong and it is his opinion. Not sure we need to start this up in someones blog. Maybe quote what bugs you and jsut start a thread next time instead of derailing a Noob's OP thread?tugger, I would suggest not taking offense when people call your opinions stupid. Getting your shit all in a knot when you know that your AA advice is pretty bad on a site that has people that make the money we do without playing hands so horribly. We are here trying to get better, not figure out how not to get sucked out on at $2NL. Hell I never open shoved AA in my entire life at a cash table. I've played over 30K hands a month for the last 3+ years. Had AA a few times.Quote:
Originally Posted by tugger
This is gold, and I think this is spot on. Just don't take offense when they start telling you your wrong, as said, figure out "why?"Quote:
Originally Posted by daven
Nice job jyms.
And thanks daven. Seems there is a little wisdom here after all.
I'd rather not get involved in silly little bitchfests, but I'd also rather not have people talk to me like I'm a piece of shit. I'm obviously going to respond to that, aren't I? Hopefully a few certain people will realise that antagonising me is not constructive in the least, and maybe explaining why I am wrong is a better route to go down.
this entire thread is pure comedic gold
Generally speaking, I think everyone should have the right to give their opinion or dispense advice. By doing so, others also have the right to then give their opinion or dispense advice to that advice. All of that SHOULD be done with as much tact and respect as possible by everyone. Unfortunately, this is the Internet and intentional or not, things don't always come off that way. Also unfortunately, at times there can be an "appeal to authority" in these threads. For example, I remember I once posted my opinion and a respected poster right after me basically said the same thing I did and then someone said "I agree with [respected poster]" instead of me who said it first. Not that I was looking for recognition or resented that he/she got recognition, but I'm just pointing out how things sometimes unfold.
tugger, I guess I haven't seen all the threads of people bashing you, but I did enjoy reading your post even though I didn't agree with all of it, I did agree with some of it. And even some of the parts I didn't agree with, I understood where you were coming from. Even if you're wrong (or better yet, people THINK you're wrong), it's still good to get different perspectives. While the concepts @ $100NL or wherever can't be ignored @ $2NL, you can't completely ignore the fact that optimal strategy @ $2NL DOES differ from all other games. The dynamics @ each level changes and optimal strategy changes with it. Not only that, but optimal strategy at THIS INSTANT IN TIME, is not the same as it was before or will be in the future. Poker is always changing.
It's not people calling my opinions stupid that bothers me, it's the manner in which people address me. If people talk to me like that in real life, I don't show them any respect. Why should I online?Quote:
tugger, I would suggest not taking offense when people call your opinions stupid. Getting your shit all in a knot when you know that your AA advice is pretty bad
Look, I know open shoving aces pf is not the most profitable way of making money with them. But shoving with them is still profitable. Play them how you like. If you want to maximise value with the hand, raise, don't open shove. But I personally don't want four people to call my x6 raise, I'd rather nobody call my x120 raise. So I shove more often than not... certainly utg, certainly if there is some heavy pf action, certainly on the blinds if half the table have limped, and certainly if I'm surrounded by fish.
See, tugger, I dont want to stir shit up or talk down to you, I dont even know where you guys argument came from. However, the above quote is not only wrong, but it shows how little thought is put in that post.Quote:
Originally Posted by tugger
That d0zer guy is right, we learn from posting wrong and get corrected. Derailing a discussion to personal stuff certainly does not help.
So the blogs and operations forum is where all the action is, huh?
So all this seems to have blown up because i originally put "1.your an idiot" instead of "1 your an idiot because you have all the information in the digest which you've hardly looked at and jumped straight onto the cash tables instead." in daeyeths log
By the time he looked at points 2 ,3 and 4 he should have been thinking .....You're right I was an idiot.
If you're going to handle the bad beats as you move up and they become for more significant amounts of money , you are going to have to develop a tough skin and a control over your emotions.
When tugger says that everyone has the right to answer questions and give opinions of course he's right , but if people do it swearing and have little "known experience" then the weight people give to that advice is going to be a lot lower than advice from people who have been there done that and ground through the stakes and beaten them.
M2m and Dranger have ground through the micros in the last year , listen to them , you will learn a lot.call them wankers and dickheads and what are the chances that they are going to give you advice when you need it.
This is why we are telling you that your advice is bad. The above paragraph is absolutely terrible from a logic standpoint. You say "shoving isn't the most profitable way", but that we should do it? Why would we do that? It makes no sense. Why would you not want to maximize the value you get with a hand, let alone the best hand?Quote:
Originally Posted by tugger
You don't want anyone to call your raise? You want people to call when you raise to 6x with JJ/QQ/etc, but you would rather avoid having to play a pot with AA/KK? How can that even sound correct to you? You want people to play against your more vulnerable hands, but the stronger the hand, the better off we are just stealing the blinds, and settling for a low average profit?
And the reason that people are getting angry is because you seem to be passing your advice off as 100% correct. Your not saying all of this in your initial post. Instead of saying, "I KNOW that it's not best to shove AA preflop, but I do it anyways just because", you are saying "You should shove AA preflop" or "Open shoving AA preflop is good".
How do the new players that you are giving advice to know what you actually mean, and how are they to decipher the good advice from the bad? They can't, so it's our jobs to do it for them, and tell them what advice is bad. And that is what has been done here. Sorry it caused a flamefest, but your advice was not correct, and players said so. I'm not always correct either, you need to learn to take it better.
Also, your statement that everyone is equal here is no where near correct. Just because it's a public forum does not make everyone equal. I don't see how you could even see it that way. Do you equal the individuals who created this forum? Do you equal the individuals that spend hours on here moderating the forum? Does your advice carry the same weight as a player who has won over $1million from poker? Not hardly.
/thread imo
Okay that's fine, I won't respond to any of your threads anymore. The thread wouldn't have derailed if you didn't respond to my post after dranger7070 came in and expanded upon what I said. It should have ended there, don't feel like you need to open your mouth about everything. I'm pretty sure you could have just read what dranger followed up with and accepted it but instead you must go on. I didn't intend to give the message of never posting your opinion again, but when you do give advice you need to construct it in a way that is sort of asking for clarification: i.e. use words like 'I think this because...' or 'this doesn't work because of this, but can someone clarify if my thinking is correct here?' That way you don't sound like you're preaching some holy advice you discovered within the very few hands you've played. It also will help other beginners understand that you aren't exactly sure about what you mean, so maybe they'll do a bit more thinking about the subject matter on their own and derive their own conclusions to post, instead of just seeing the advice, taking it, and not actually thinking about the logic behind any of the reasoning.Quote:
Originally Posted by tugger
See, I wish you'd have just said this in the first place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Micro2Macro
I'm not complaining that I'm getting critisised, it's just that it seems to take me losing my rag to get something constructive. You're right, I do need to think about my posts more. But you guys really need to think about your replies a little more too. If discussion like this are ugly and needless, then don't be fucking rude to people, it's really that simple. I could've left it, it's true. But I am tired of the way you guys speak to not just me, but to others too. The opening poster was called an idiot simply for not being that good at poker. There's just no need for it.
Stacks...
I think you missed my point. I don't mind if two or even three people call my raise when I have aces, but once we get to four I start to feel very vulnerable with aces, and I start to feel that instead of winning a big pot, I'm going to lose a big pot. While you might be able to make more money playing aces properly, maybe I can't. I was having some bad luck and losing big pots with them. I was losing money with aces because I was getting too many pre flop callers, that was the only logical reason for it. I'm not favourite against three hands. I might have the best hand out of the four of us, but hands like aces do not flop well often enough, they're not good multi way, in my experience. Cash rooms I'd rather be heads up with aces, ideally for all my money pre flop. I don't mind taking down blinds with them either.
But I'm not going to sit here and try and claim this is optimal, because it's obviously not. It just suits me to avoid multi-way confrontation with a hand that is expensive when it loses.
When I step up, I'll play aces differently. At 2nl, I'm shoving, because it makes life easier for me.
For the record, nothing I say is 100% fact. It's my opinion. I assume when I read other people's posts that I am reading their opinion, not fact.
I'll make you a deal. You post 10 AA hands in this thread where you lost in the last month, if we can't find something wrong with 6 of them I will ship you $10 on stars. That's 5 buy ins. Maybe we all learn something.
Why don't you stop trying to reinterpret whats been written.I didn't call him an idiot for not being good at poker . I called him an idiot for writing in the first post of this blog that he was going to read ALL of the beginners digest and then saying that was 5% done. I counted 47 articles there which meant that he had read 2 or 3 of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by tugger
He didn't think wow ....lots of knowledge here and read more but jumped straight in and multi tabled at a stake he wasn't rolled for. Had he read the bankroll management articles , the noobie circle of death article and lots of the others , he wouldn't have made these basic mistakes. With such a wealth of information available was that a wise choice to make or stupid?
I then pointed him to the specific article which addressed some of the mistakes in his approach to poker (not to how he actually played). Then asked him questions to make sure that he understood the article and a follow up question which hasn't been answered yet.
The OP is going to have to do a lot of thinking for himself and work out the best way to tackle situations. He has to realize that he should work out whether its best to shove Aces or value bet them. I can think of a specific situation where shoving Aces is the best policy but in general its not as all you will do is fold everyone out and win the least amount possible in the long term.
Therefore having read the article I pointed him to he should have worked out why I called him an idiot. And Having been called an idiot that lesson is going to be firmly fixed in his brain.You say that we need to think about our replies more. I throw the same statement back at . You need to think about our replies more. We are not going to just spoonfeed you answers and you will zoom off and make a fortune.You need to understand what you are being told , think about it, wonder if theres any other areas the same principles can be applied , whether theres specific times that the answer given may not be the best solution and the ask questions about that .
Or you can just take the hump and feel offended. Who else has felt the need to swear in this thread ? This explanation is a further simplification and and explanation of my original post for the third time now and you still chose to ignore and misrepresent what I originally wrote after the previous explanations.
There's still no need to come straight in and call him an idiot, however it's interpreted. This is how you welcome people, and then you seem surprised when people get the hump and start mouthing off? Your advice is good, I'm not knocking what you say here, but people do actually get offended by being called an idiot. It's rude, plain and simple.Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith_MM
I can't be bothered to sift through my hand history, though I would like to find those three that I had to fold in the space of an hour. However, I'm about to get stuck into a four hour session, I'll post tonight's AA hands here, assuming I get them.Quote:
I'll make you a deal. You post 10 AA hands in this thread where you lost in the last month, if we can't find something wrong with 6 of them I will ship you $10 on stars. That's 5 buy ins. Maybe we all learn something.
i rarely leave the commune but for this type stuff i feel i have too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bbickes
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
BB ($3.01)
UTG ($2.47)
UTG+1 ($1.83)
Hero (MP1) ($1.95)
MP2 ($5.48)
CO ($2.95)
Button ($1.74)
SB ($5.28)
Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif
2 folds, Hero bets $0.10, 2 folds, Button calls $0.10, 2 folds
Flop: ($0.23) 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $0.20, Button calls $0.20
Turn: ($0.63) 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $0.40, Button raises to $1.44 (All-In), Hero calls $1.04
River: ($3.51) 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)
Total pot: $3.51 | Rake: $0.15
Results:
Button had 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (flush, nine high).
Hero had Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (flush, King high).
Outcome: Hero won $3.36
One raise and take from the button, 5c pot.
And then this...
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
MP2 ($2.65)
MP3 ($1.77)
CO ($5.44)
Button ($1.89)
SB ($3.48)
BB ($1.07)
UTG ($4.01)
UTG+1 ($1.03)
Hero (MP1) ($2.07)
Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif
2 folds, Hero bets $0.10, 1 fold, MP3 calls $0.10, 4 folds
Flop: ($0.23) 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $0.20, 1 fold
Total pot: $0.23 | Rake: $0
Results:
Hero didn't show Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (nothing).
Outcome: Hero won $0.23
without reads both hands are played fine.
Best to post hand histories without results, and with the hand history stopped at hero's last action. Hand 1 there is an argument for betting the turn harder, but you got it in as 75%ish favourite so you gotta be happy with that.
Is the push right here?
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
Hero (BB) ($2.20)
UTG ($4.82)
UTG+1 ($4.23)
MP1 ($3.04)
MP2 ($0.80)
MP3 ($4.61)
CO ($6.45)
Button ($2.27)
SB ($5.54)
Preflop: Hero is BB with Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif
3 folds, MP2 bets $0.06, 2 folds, Button raises to $0.10, 1 fold, Hero raises to $2.20 (All-In), 1 fold, Button calls $2.10
Flop: ($4.47) Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)
Turn: ($4.47) 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)
River: ($4.47) 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)
Total pot: $4.47 | Rake: $0.20
Results:
Button had 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (high card, Ace).
Hero had Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (three of a kind, Kings).
Outcome: Hero won $4.27
Yeah I got no reads on most players. I'll be sure to post any notes if I have them.Quote:
Originally Posted by daven
In future I'll leave out results, but the purpose of these hands is just to see how my aces and kings hold up. So far so good, but I'm yet to get multi calls.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
Button ($5.61)
SB ($1.22)
BB ($1.84)
UTG ($1.55)
UTG+1 ($6.53)
MP1 ($5)
Hero (MP2) ($2.60)
CO ($4.36)
Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif
2 folds, MP1 calls $0.02, Hero bets $0.14, 1 fold, Button calls $0.14, 2 folds, MP1 calls $0.12
Flop: ($0.45) 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (3 players)
MP1 checks, Hero bets $0.40, 2 folds
Total pot: $0.45 | Rake: $0
I get it. Shoving with aces is costing me money. If the donks wanna get their chips in pre, great. If they got top pair and wanna get fruity, that's fine by me. If I really think I'm beat, I can fold them. But I'm making more than just shoving.
Really?Quote:
Originally Posted by tugger
Are you taking the piss out of my poor sentence structure? It is a poor sentence. I'm making more by playing aces and kings compared to shoving with them, based on tonight's play. I can't see any of the hands I was up against calling a shove pre, with the exception of the guy who called my shove with AT, but we got the chips in pre regardless, and I'm still not sure whether I should push here or just raise.Quote:
Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
You should definitely raise here, even though a cold 4bet from the blinds is lolstrong. Just open shipping is kind of bad though. Make it to like 30ish cents and you're probably good to go.
deep breath dude! it's cool that you're making more $$, $5nl soon enough i'm guessing. I think stax was simply pointing out that it's not surprising that raising AA/KK is more profitable - in light reference to the earlier advice, and more in jest than anything else. I'm sure there was zero nasty intent.Quote:
Originally Posted by tugger
also, start posting any difficult or complicated hands in the beginners circle - edit, just saw the AKs hand so my advice is redundant...
Awesome post, thanks Stacks.Quote:
Originally Posted by XxStacksxX
Thanks Jyms for splitting this crap out of a legit thread.
Looks like this thread can just die out from here. Post your hands in a strat forum. Glad you're seeing the light and not going to open shove your AA/KK anymore :P