Standard spot w/ TT - 50nl

I´ve been active and so has been the villian. He 3bet a bunch in and out of position. Comments on all streets are welcome.

$0.25/$0.50 No Limit Holdem
6 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($53.85)
Hero ($51.65)
CO ($55.30)
BTN ($32)
SB ($50.90)
BB ($59.60)

Pre-Flop: ($0.75, 6 players) Hero is UTG+1 :ts: :td:
1 fold, Hero raises to $1.75, CO raises to $5.50, 3 folds, Hero calls $3.75

Flop: :9c: :2s: :4s: ($11.75, 2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks

Turn: :5s: ($11.75, 2 players)
Hero bets $7, CO raises to $26, $19 to Hero ($39.15)?

His line is super strange and doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me here. I don't ever see him checking QQ-AA or a set on this flop given that it's semi-drawy and you have plenty of like 99-QQ here and wont be folding this flop too often.

Looks more like AQ with a spade or some other sort of turned equity. The only made hand he's really repping here is like A3 or 55 imo. Also, if you've both been active he probably expects you to stab here with a large chunk of your range when he checks this flop.

For these reasons, I just ship it in here. I think we get it in vs a naked A or Ks a fair amount and if he randomly has slowplayed some monster or ginned the turn we likely still have some equity.

If villain has only really been 3-betting in the blinds and late position I can just fold preflop here. It's never a nice spot postflop unless we flop a set and if he's aggro I can see myself just getting owned way too often post-flop.

discussion pre hand posting

<daven> i don't like pre, i don't like turn
<XTR|grind> care to share your thoughts why?
<daven> i don't like calling 3-bets oop with mid-strength hands
<daven> like, you always have 66-QQ there
<XTR|grind> thats not the case
<daven> what else you have there?
<daven> KK+ sometimes, anything else?
<XTR|grind> AQs-ATs, some 56s
<daven> that could well be a leak - remember me and 6-max tho!
<daven> i meant pre-flop, you really call those hands often?

<XTR|grind> lol no its not std
<XTR|grind> but that guy is 3betting too wide too fold here imo

<daven> ok, if he's 3-betting wide then you don't have set odds

<XTR|grind> i dont call for set value
<daven> yeah, i get it, set + TT intrinsic
<XTR|grind> i mean i can see call or 4b being close
<daven> thing is, it's hard to play TT oop in a bloated pot vs a strong range

<XTR|grind> yes, but at that point i didnt consider his range all that strong

<XTR|grind> anyway, im more wondering what the heck hes trying to rep on turn
* nish81 eats dat trout
<daven> his range is pretty strong, it's a combo of hands that dominate TT, hands like AK/AQs, and a few other hands


<daven> vs TT and ip it's got a lot of relative strength, oder?

<XTR> hmm

<XTR> {66+, AT+, A8s+, 54s-78s, JTo+}

<daven> he 3-bettng that wide?!

<XTR> Im like 28%pfr stealing >60%, dude is taking advantage of that

<XTR> he could be running good tho, he didnt show down much
<daven> you're mp
<daven> turn you're against overpairs, flushes, and overcards with flush draws that beat yours
<XTR> now forget pre for a sec, lets talk about the turn
<XTR> i dont think i agree
<daven> don't we need a range pre to look at turn effectively?
<XTR> sure
<XTR> i gave a range
<daven> checking flop behind screams flush draw
<XTR> tighten that up a bit to {88+, AJ+, A8s+, 67s-89s, JTo}
<XTR> it def takes way all the overpairs
<daven> not sure about QsQx-AsAx
<XTR> im not sure about the FDs, most regs just monkey cbet those
<daven> ok, to him you look a lot like a mid pocket pair or AT-AK
<daven> then you donk turn
<daven> after checking flop, you can have 99 obviously, or Asx, or even a AsQs
<daven> or 88-QQ
<XTR> yea
<XTR> he´s not bluffing vs that range, is he?
<daven> the turn donk fits all of that range after the flop checks through
<daven> if he's bluffing the turn he has 14 outs
<XTR> so we fold and are happy with it
<daven> but mostly he isn't semi-bluffing the turn cos he considers he has implied odds to call
<daven> we fold and re-examine pre-flop

<daven> and whether our flop play is consistent with our reasoning for calling pre
<dranger|25nl> can the flush NOT come in ONE TIME
<dranger|25nl> kthx bai
<daven> ^yep, when you're drawing to it ldo
<dranger|25nl> well ldo
<XTR> i see preflop being close and tbh i dont think it matters much whether we fold or call vs this villian
<XTR> i can be incredibly wrong tho
<daven> it's a standard spot - post the question in sh forum
<daven> TT mp, active villain 3-bets the button
<daven> 100 deep, light reads
<daven> i'm intrigued
<daven> FR i've learned that folding>4-betting>calling there most of the time

<XTR> http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...nl-t90007.html
<BooG> gross board
<daven> cool, interesting to see if the poker minds agree with this wannabe

Have you called any of his other 3bets OOP? What was his flop line?

I think if he had air, he would probably just cbet this flop. So that makes me think his most likely hands are overpairs and the best case scenario seems to be AsK,AsQ type hands.

I'm not saying you should fold pre but if you're going to flat oop you need to have better reads imo.

i probably call hoping he has AsKx. i might fold if i had red tens though...hmm

Doesn't seem std to me.

I guess I dont bet turn unless I plan to call though, and I'd probably bet turn, so I call.

Pre-flop I tend to play like this, but I'm really trying to stop calling 3bets OOP.

Villains line makes no sense so I'm more likely to call.

How do you feel about 4betting/stacking of?
To me it seems like either that's profitable, or it's not and if it's not than calling OOP probably isn't either.

But I would probaby play the same and call now. Or I don't bet the turn...I think I wouldn't bet the turn.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by minSim

How do you feel about 4betting/stacking of?
To me it seems like either that's profitable, or it's not and if it's not than calling OOP probably isn't either.

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Just because we're ahead of his 3betting range, doesn't mean its necessarily a profitable 4bet stack off. If someone is 3betting our EP raises waay too light then we're probably better off just 4bet bluffing them more often. Regardless of his light 3betting range, TT is probably still dead to his 5bet shoving range.

So calling OOP could be the best play here, but I'd still rather have better reads on villains habits before I do that.

Agree griffey, ofcourse. But what I really meant to say was;

Calling TT in this situation is hard to play postflop, it might even be -EV.
Folding is 0EV.

If villains 3betting range is wide enough we can 4bet a lot of hands profitable for FE. Reads are that villain 3bets loosish. So even if 4bet/calling is assumingly marginal; 4betting itself is ++EV because of the FE.
Comparing that to a marginal call or 0EV fold, it might not be that bad.

Quite some information needed before knowing if it's profitable tho and I even haven't done the math. I just wanted to point out that if you're up against a seemingly loose range you can consider 4betting primarily because of FE, as calling is just a very shitty spot.

I don't like the call at all, I personally shove here pre. I'm not saying it's best but we are ahead of his range and calling and playing postflop is going to suck all day without knowing more about his 3bet postflop tendancies. Folding a hand this good pre vs a light 3better is even worse. As played I think I check the turn and maybe call one bet. I don't want to play for a ton of chips after we've seen a bunch of cards.

TT is rarely dead to a 5betting range from this guy, id think.

Anyway, its a close fold imo. Raise size does make me want to call but it could also be red aces that don't want to see a spade.


Board: 9c 2s 4s 5s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 31.061% 31.06% 00.00% 123 0.00 { TdTs }
Hand 1: 68.939% 68.94% 00.00% 273 0.00 { AA, AsKc, AsKd, AsKh }

^^
If his hand is scared of spades I bet he bets the flop

^^ yea most likely

I didnt play many flops with him having him to my immediate left. I 4bet him twice ip before and he folded rather quickly, I called a 3b ip and gave up when he cbet Axx.

In a vacuum calling preflop is less than marginal, but given dynamic my hand is too strong to fold or to 4bet, isn´t it?

I am surprised that so many here consider checking the turn. I am lacking definite reads, but how often does he have an overpair, NFD/KXss, a set or complete air when he checks back flop? How often does he have some 77 or A9 looking to show down without much of a hassle?

Oh he's obv full of shit. The only problem with calling is that he goes to the river with the lead AND a lot of his range has gobs of equity against us. I hate to disagree with the legendary GP but calling turn kinda sucks a fat one imo

On paper it sounds kinda spewy but I think I'd yell HOOOLD and Geronimo jam for value/protection since As3x is the only hand he can have that has us drawing dead and even that's unlikely since even habitual 3bettors dump A3 pre because of reverse implieds etc.

P.S. FWIW if he's European I can't get my money in fast enough here

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jyms

I don't like the call at all, I personally shove here pre.

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Like.. you just 4bet jam over his 3bet? I don't see why, that's probably the best way to make the least from any hands we're actually in reasonable shape against.

Just 4bet normally, and let him decide if he wants to jam A9cc or something.

Yea I probably shortened that considerably without thinking, what I was thinking is a 4 bet here, but I'm not 4bet bluffing so I am getting it in. If I ain't calling a shove I ain't betting and I fold.