Semibluff raises (100nl)

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10-20-2009, 07:22 PM
bjsaust

Semibluff raises (100nl)

Just after thoughts on lines, bet sizing, etc.

Hand 1

PFR is actually pretty tight so not sure about my donk, but then I think if he calls I can get him to fold later. Btn is 35/13 and I dont really have a read on him.

No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP ($107.62)
Hero (SB) ($100)
BB ($100)
UTG ($151.20)
Button ($82)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif
UTG bets $4, 1 fold, Button calls $4, Hero calls $3.50, 1 fold

Flop: ($13) 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (3 players)
Hero bets $8, 1 fold, Button calls $8

Turn: ($29) 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $22, Button calls $22

River: ($73) 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $66 (All-In)

Hand 2

UTG is 30/24 who doesn't really seem to understand position. Cbets 80% over 100 hands.

No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button ($61.11)
Hero (SB) ($100)
UTG ($156.14)
MP ($123.63)
CO ($155.26)
BB ($27.56)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif
UTG bets $3, 3 folds, Hero calls $2.50, 1 fold

Flop: ($7) 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $4, Hero raises $15, UTG calls $11

Turn: ($37) 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $18

Smallish turn bet wasnt really expecting a fold but trying to setup something credible for river shove. I'd have had 64 into about 73.

Hand 3

I think this was UTGs 5th hand or something, already limped once or twice. I just couldn't see him folding anything on river that he got there with, but I did wonder if a c/r would be pure spew or have merit?

No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (BB) ($111.61)
MP ($47.50)
UTG ($50.50)
SB ($114.97)
Button ($140.96)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif
UTG calls $1, 3 folds, Hero checks

Flop: ($2.50) 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $2, UTG calls $2

Turn: ($6.50) Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $4, UTG calls $4

River: ($14.50) 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $6.89, Hero folds
10-21-2009, 05:25 AM
minSim

1- I don't like the flop donk. Turn should be good and river is good I like.

2- I'm not sure what to make of villains cbet size. That seems to be a betsize that isn't intended to fold and you are repping 55/33 and a lot of draws by c/ring.
I do like your turn plan a lot if you're pretty sure villain would have 3bet the flop with good aces OR isn't gonna raise you on the turn with them. That's quiet an assumption tho.

3- I think a c/r is spew, I'd rather c/c. I would also c/f flop I think.
10-21-2009, 07:27 AM
Da GOAT

1 - std c/c flop for me since donk pfr acts next then donk decides. we could get great c/c odds here. donking leads to this line been taken and i dont like it.

2 - id almost always c/c flop here. whats a c/r accomplish.

3 - fine imo
10-21-2009, 08:58 AM
Pelion

Hand 1: Youre ahead of the flush draw/gutshots and you dont know anything about him except he's loose. Most of the hands he can have that are ahead of you are "big hands" that loose players hate to fold. I wouldnt trust him to fold a 1 card straight/trips/FH/JJ and you beat most of the rest.

Hand 2: My general feeling is that bluffing loose bad players isnt going to be profitable. Your turn bet looks so weak that Id worry someone like this is going to raise a lot with an A.

Hand 3: Again, probably a loose/bad player. Play good hands against him. I dont even think the A is that good a scarecard since you didnt raise preflop. I dont hate it but Id just c/f flop.

Out of interest, how often do these kinds of plays get folds against loosish players for you? I tend to save these until I suspect someone can fold.
10-21-2009, 10:28 AM
Ravageur

hand 1 seems fine, you're repping strength throughout the hand and he can have smaller fds and overpairs that he's folding.

hand 2 i would fold pf. As played i think both c/r and c/call have merit and a downfall. If you c/call the flop and he bets the turn you're in an ugly spot because you're not getting paid off on a spade river most of the time. By c/raising if you do hit gin you have a better change of getting paid off imo but you're in a gross spot if he raises the turn or if he calls and you brick the river. Pick your poison i guess now. Maybe c/call flop and c/fold turn if he bets a decent amount. If turn is checked through I would lead any river ofc.

hand 3 - I would just c/fold the turn. I also don't seem to fight very much for these small limped pots, and i'm not convinced they affect your winrate very much but i could be very wrong.
10-21-2009, 11:09 AM
Luke999

Hand 1 do you think you show a profit calling this OOP 3 way especially when UTG is tight.
10-21-2009, 03:57 PM
bjsaust

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pelion

Out of interest, how often do these kinds of plays get folds against loosish players for you? I tend to save these until I suspect someone can fold.

Probably the biggest problem friends have with my game is that I'm too passive, especially postflop, so I'm trying to work more on finding spots to be aggressive. I dont really have a lot of experience either way. My assumption with loose but not terrible plays is they'll float me a bit, but if I can set up scary shoves they'll usually fold. So far thats been borne out, but small sample.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ravageur

I also don't seem to fight very much for these small limped pots, and i'm not convinced they affect your winrate very much but i could be very wrong.

Again I've always been on the passive side and so never fought for these small limped pots either, but I've been reading/hearing a lot of good players saying they should be fought for. This may have been a bad spot though.
10-21-2009, 08:54 PM
mixchange

Hand 1 is a fold pre

as played you should c/r here not lead, I don't think you'd ever lead a 6 there but you would draws and crappy pairs

Hand 2 I'd rather 3bet or fold pre, and only 3bet vs. certain types of opponents

Hand 3

another totally lost lead. stop doing that. Here I'd just check and look for my hand to improve, fold to any bet or maybe c/r some players if they are limping a gigantic range

Quote:

Probably the biggest problem friends have with my game is that I'm too passive, especially postflop, so I'm trying to work more on finding spots to be aggressive. I dont really have a lot of experience either way. My assumption with loose but not terrible plays is they'll float me a bit, but if I can set up scary shoves they'll usually fold. So far thats been borne out, but small sample.

Check raise more, lead flops less. Also looks like you are calling too light OOP. Play loads of cards IP and raise scary flops for their range, play tight IP. Playing aggressive post flop OOP isn't that profitable or cool most of the time. I notice all 3 hands here are marginals OOP, gonna always be rough if you ride this way ;)
10-21-2009, 09:17 PM
bjsaust

A5s I definately agree, and the Q2o was just checked in the BB. QKo is one of my few hands I call OOP with, and only v's widish ranges. I can see arguments not to, but then I want something other than PPs in my blinds calling range.

Hand 1 I thought a cbet was less likely than usual here, 3way on this board, so I wasnt sure I'd get much chance at a c/r (and if I did it would be v's a relatively strong range). Not true?

Agree on the OOP stuff, I'm normally fairly tight OOP, just some slip through and then get me confused enough to post ;).
10-21-2009, 10:50 PM
mixchange

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjsaust

QKo is one of my few hands I call OOP with, and only v's widish ranges. I can see arguments not to, but then I want something other than PPs in my blinds calling range.

Hand 1 I thought a cbet was less likely than usual here, 3way on this board, so I wasnt sure I'd get much chance at a c/r (and if I did it would be v's a relatively strong range). Not true?

Agree on the OOP stuff, I'm normally fairly tight OOP, just some slip through and then get me confused enough to post ;).

In regard to a BB flatting range, you shouldn't add a hand into your range that isn't profitable just "for balance". You can flat AQ here for sure, and a bunch of other stuff.

In regards to "not getting a chance" to c/r, that is fine. You now can rep strength on the turn better than anyone else in the hand.
10-21-2009, 10:55 PM
bjsaust

I think my entire non-PP balance range is AQ and KQ, and I'll 3bet AQ v's some people :p.
10-21-2009, 11:22 PM
Micro2Macro

c/r in hand 2 looks absurdly large
10-22-2009, 12:05 AM
Genitruc

1 : i d fold pre, like flop and turn but if villain was at all decent at reading hands I d check-fold riv. if he wants to call down with an overpair, this is a great card to do it on

2 : fine but I d make turn a little bigger like maybe 22. your line is fine but it kind of looks lke you re trying to represent extreme strength. make it look like a low flush or set trying to protect against a 4th spade and I d belive you a whole lot more...

3 : barreling is fine on this riv. he has less than an ace so often. i don t mind check call either
10-22-2009, 12:13 AM
bjsaust

Yeah, bet sizing in hand 2 on turn is interesting. My thinking was that if I went with a more normal sized turn bet, I wouldnt have enough left to fold anything on the river. i.e., if I made it 22 then the pot is around 81 and only 60 left. Is that enough? Or would I be betting turn but c/f river if missed when called?

M2M, villains cbet was very small. I normally c/r about 3x but made it slightly higher here due to the potsize (i.e., only raising to 12 would leave him calling 8 into 22)
10-22-2009, 02:15 AM
Genitruc

leaving 3/4 pot for riv is fine
10-22-2009, 02:34 AM
Micro2Macro

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjsaust

M2M, villains cbet was very small. I normally c/r about 3x but made it slightly higher here due to the potsize (i.e., only raising to 12 would leave him calling 8 into 22)

good point, hmmmm

I'm wondering if our FE would even change much though, but it's hard to say. Probably better to bet bigger when in doubt, wp.
10-22-2009, 07:01 AM
Luke999

Hand 1 what are peoples thoughts on C/R rather than leading?
10-22-2009, 05:47 PM
Micro2Macro

Quote:

Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjsaust

M2M, villains cbet was very small. I normally c/r about 3x but made it slightly higher here due to the potsize (i.e., only raising to 12 would leave him calling 8 into 22)

good point, hmmmm

I'm wondering if our FE would even change much though, but it's hard to say. Probably better to bet bigger when in doubt, wp.

wait hold on..what exactly are you trying to take him off with your c/r?
10-22-2009, 06:52 PM
bjsaust

I want to get him off any AX by the end of the hand, because I can have the nut flush and he cant. I'm also happy for him to fold air here, and obviously him folding any PP is a good result.

Problem in my mind is, if we take a passive line we rarely get paid. If he has AX (without a spade) and I make my flush I dont get paid on a 4-flush board. If he has a PP I have 15 outs to improve, but how much more do I get out of him on a K or Q if he has JJ-?
10-23-2009, 04:51 AM
Da GOAT

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjsaust

I want to get him off any AX by the end of the hand, because I can have the nut flush and he cant. I'm also happy for him to fold air here, and obviously him folding any PP is a good result.

surely you can use a different line to get him off air and small PPs? I dislike a c/r here alot as I mentioned above.

Problem in my mind is, if we take a passive line we rarely get paid. If he has AX (without a spade) and I make my flush I dont get paid on a 4-flush board. If he has a PP I have 15 outs to improve, but how much more do I get out of him on a K or Q if he has JJ-?

Seems to me we lose overall anyway when you c/r flop and bet turn against the times you use the same line and whiff. When you whiff you have very little FE on turn imo. So keepin the pot small OOP, we nut draw, bad barrel board sounds good to me.
10-23-2009, 05:30 AM
bjsaust

You need to give me more guidance DG, I have no idea what you're suggesting is better than c/r to get him off hands.
10-23-2009, 05:44 AM
Da GOAT

you could just c/c flop, if he has small PP/air (diff types of air here, some have weak FD outs/slight showdown) he will prob pot control turn. then you bet river to get a fold or just check if he wont fire bluffs on river.