Carroters' thread about hands that have killed the red line.

Ok so I just feel pretty damn disatsified with my game recently and like I'm spewing in tons of spots where I end up folding. So here are a few of these sort of hands from the last few days for scrutiny and likely needed flamings.

1. BU is an aggro reg running 30/27 ATS of 50 over 180 hands. BB is an unknown who's just sat down. I flat preflop because BU is the type to either 4 bet or fold to 3-bets so I doubt I can 3-bet for value and am way ahead of his opening range.

On the flop this donk out looks like no better than AJ and is often a draw with 50NL donks. I elect to raise for value vs worse aces and draws. I bet the turn for the same reasons. I check the river since I think I'm running out of value now especially when AT has just got there. When he shoves, I'm like "wow" and time right down, folding at the last minute. Like, his line is very indiciative of a busted draw, but I just don't see people shove the river as a bluff like this too often, especially passive lookings guys who've taken fishy lines like this guy. Also, he's new to the table which makes me think he'd be less inclined to just bluff his stack here. QJ, AT and slowplayed/weirdly played stuff is what he's repping so I just decide to fold. How's my thinking and play in this hand?

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG ($96.50)
MP ($82.10)
Button ($57.95)
Hero (SB) ($50)
BB ($49.25)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif
2 folds, Button bets $1.25, Hero calls $1, BB calls $0.75

Flop: ($3.75) Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $1.50, 1 fold, Hero raises $5.50, BB calls $4

Turn: ($14.75) 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $12, BB calls $12

River: ($38.75) 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $30.50 (All-In), Hero folds

Total pot: $38.75

2. Villain is 10/10 ATS of 26 over 150 hands and has folded to 2/3 3-bets. He clearly opens a wdie enough range on the BU for 3-betting to be alright here, and usually I 30bet AQ here. I just figured I call and keep in the shit that I dominate since I'm not sure how wide he's calling and don't know a lot about his postflop game since he doesn't play many flops.

So I c/r the flop just because he has lots of random overs and things that miss this flop and he should be too nitty I hope to realise that I rep very little. This may well be spewy, I'm not sure.
On the turn, I feel like I can fold out like [A8 99-QQ] and can rep a flush quite happily. The overcard probably scares him because he's relatively nitty. When he calls the turn I decide his range is pretty strong and just c/f the river since I don't think I get enough folds with a jam.

Thoughts?

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP ($35.45)
CO ($65.75)
Button ($69.75)
SB ($85.70)
Hero (BB) ($51.25)
UTG ($115.85)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif
3 folds, Button bets $1.50, 1 fold, Hero calls $1

Flop: ($3.25) 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $1.50, Hero raises $5.30, Button calls $3.80

Turn: ($13.85) Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $10.50, Button calls $10.50

River: ($34.85) 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $20, Hero folds

Total pot: $34.85

3. This one looks horrible now. Villain is unknown 27/14 over 20. BU is a 23/19 TAG. Preflop is pretty standard with the dead monies I think. Really not sure about flop bet, it's likely too small, but I'm not geting called by many smaller aces so though my best bet of geting value from a weakish range was to bet pretty smallish. I planned to c/f the turn, but his bet was so lame that I called since there were draws and random crap still likely in his range. River I think is quite an easy fold.

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB ($60)
BB ($27.05)
UTG ($51.50)
Hero (MP) ($50)
CO ($50)
Button ($145.60)

Preflop: Hero is MP with Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif
1 fold, Hero bets $2.50, CO (poster) calls $2, Button calls $2.50, 2 folds

Flop: ($8.25) Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (3 players)
Hero bets $5.40, CO calls $5.40, 1 fold

Turn: ($19.05) Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $7, Hero calls $7

River: ($33.05) 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $18.50, Hero folds

Total pot: $33.05

4. BU is an unknown and has been there for less than 10 hands and not done anything yet. SB is a 34/16 over 40 and seems to call too much out of the blinds. He hasn't yet faced a 3-bet. How is th squeeze first of all. My reasoning is that the BU shouldn't be looking to mess about without reads since he's just sat down and the SB's range is weak and we have relative position. So even if he does flat us, he'll be c/f a good amount of the time. I decide to give up on the flop since theres plenty pairs in his range and I know nothing about him. When he checks back this drawy of a flop though I somewhat discount TT-QQ, and fire to try to fold out overcards. I just c/f the river since he isn't folding a pair very often given my line. I could probably bet less on the tun and get the same result vs his range. How does this look?

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG ($16.60)
MP ($24.25)
Button ($48.75)
SB ($45.40)
Hero (BB) ($52.75)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif
2 folds, Button bets $2, SB calls $1.75, Hero raises $8.50, Button calls $7, 1 fold

Flop: ($20) 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks

Turn: ($20) 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $14, Button calls $14

River: ($48) 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $25.75 (All-In), Hero folds

Total pot: $48

5. Last One! This guy is o_omx or something, one of the better regs at 50NL imo. He's 29/23 57ATS over 350. He c-bets only 48% I flat preflop because his range is uber wide but I can't 3 bet here for values. I c/c the flop because if I lead and am raised I'm in a shitty spot and c/r seems terrible. This turn is likely a fold given board texture, but I feel like he's barrelling it with everything he bets the flop with. We have a bit of an aggro dynamic/rivalry going on aswell. I just feel losed and owned on this river because I surely can't hero call here given his low c-bet frequency. Fold turn? Thoughts?

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP ($50)
Button ($122.30)
SB ($53.25)
Hero (BB) ($65.80)
UTG ($50.75)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif
2 folds, Button bets $1.50, 1 fold, Hero calls $1

Flop: ($3.25) 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $3, Hero calls $3

Turn: ($9.25) Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $8, Hero calls $8

River: ($25.25) 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $20, Hero folds

Total pot: $25.25

I realise I've rambled a bit here, but if anyone can give me some feedback on my thought process and not just the hands that' be ideal. Although feedback just on the hands is obviously more than welcome too. I need to get some perspective on spots like this to gain back some confidecne. Thanks in advance.

1) How often does he call/fold 3bets? I would 3bet pre a fair bit. I don't mind just c/c flop, c/r is fine if he peels light. As played, he would very likely jam a hand like AK/KKK/AAA somewhere (flop or turn), he'd also probably get it in with QJhh sometimes on flop.

I would c/c this river once I check, no clue what nonsense he's betting here. Most of his range should be checking back since it looks like you have missed hearts anyway and their bet has no value.

2) I already looked at all the hands, and you're calling waaay too much in blinds instead of just 3betting pre and taking over initiative. 3bet pre for sure here. If you call, c/c this flop is ok sinec you're likely ahead and he'll likely bluff the cards that hit you.

If you're going to c/r, I don't mind turn and riv.

3) Meh I'd just double barrel this. As played, who knows, need good reads to know what he's capable of here.

4) This is so bad. cbet this flop, or completely shut down. Your line is the worst combination of all options. You bet the turn in a spot where he will call a huuuge part of his range and then give up. I think the giving up is fine given that he will almost always call again, but that bet in itself serves no purpose when practically nothing is folding given your line. Do you really think he's gonna put you on 4x?

5) Again, I'd probably 3bet or fold pre, unless I had good reads on his post flop tendencies. As played, I'd probably just c/f turn given the sizing he's using, but yah c/f riv is good.

Screw the redline, it's almost completely irrelevant to everything that you think it is.

Thanks for the input Griffey.

Yeah I know Marshall, but it's indicative of the way I'm feeling about hands where I end up bloating the pot and then folding, just not comfotable with spots like these.

alrighht ima try to help u out

1. This simply has to be either a jam or a check/call any. U put him on some weak shit or a draw, and there arent many hands in his range that want to go all in in the river for value. Youre looking at 44, QJhh, and maybe AT, and the rest bluffs. I feel like he can still have a bunch of shit that you beat and might call the river if you bet. I'd probably just lead less than all in but if i checked, call any.

2. You said you c/r flop because hes missed alot. you have fucking AQ! just call ldo, you rep very little by raising and he plays almost perfectly against a c/r + shutdown on blanks. as played, turn seems ok and u must jam river. Betting turn and giving up on blank rivers looks really retarded on this board. you can get some big folds if you ship it.

3. i think this one is ok

4. you cannot represent a goddamn thing on this turn, you should c/f once more and throw out a fake value bet on river if it checks through again. this should fold out a lot of hands because you can credibly something here. this is a flop where you might have whiffed a c/r with an overpair, and pot controlled a scary turn. If the river is a total brick like a 2 or board pair, you might also value bet AK high. so it should be fairly effective to double delayed cbet this but not single delayed cbet vs a good handreader.

5. this is a turn fold vs almost every poker player

Thanks a lot nuts, that's all very helpful. I agree totally about hand 1 now, I think my lack of confidence since moving up to 50NL and not getting the results I wanted has killed my instinct in spots like this.

Hand 2: Should we just be c/f the turn if he bets again after we call flop and just be checking back trying to get to showdown if he checks, since we're good a lot of the time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carroters

Hand 2: Should we just be c/f the turn if he bets again after we call flop and just be checking back trying to get to showdown if he checks, since we're good a lot of the time.

well, surely we're not expecting a 10/10 with an ATS of 50 over 150 hands to be barreling scare cards, so i don't see us having any options here but c/f'ing. maybe he's barreling the A :spade: , but that means we're only calling to beat As9x-AsJx on non 8, K, {9,T,J}, spade rivers, soooooo prolly don't have the equity to call.