KK 100nl mixing it up

*this hand was in euros

UTG is 23norab, a heavy grinder of both cash/tourneys. no significant history. SB is the table fish, which is partially why I decided to flat. The other reason was I'd been at the table for a couple orbits and hadn't 3bet yet.

I considered raising the flop, but decided that there were very few bad turns (9, A) and I could continue to disguise the strength of my hand as well as possibly keep the fish in the pot by just calling. Do the merits of raising outweigh the value of keeping SB in and underepping my hand?

I think the turn raise is possibly bad, though I did it because I didn't think I could value shove the river if UTG fired again -- is this incorrect? I thought because my value range would be so thin in this spot (99, KK+, 4x) that he wouldn't be able to fold TT-QQ to a raise, but in retrospect he probably doesn't have any reason to believe I'd be capable of bluffing in this spot.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop | saw showdown

Button ($100)
SB ($265.25)
BB ($108.05)
UTG ($164.10)
Hero (MP) ($100)

Preflop: Hero is MP with Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ilies/club.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/heart.gif
UTG bets $3, Hero calls $3, 1 fold, SB calls $2.50, 1 fold

Flop: ($10) 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/heart.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/spade.gif, 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ilies/club.gif (3 players)
SB checks, UTG bets $6, Hero calls $6, 1 fold

Turn: ($22) 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/spade.gif (2 players)
UTG bets $14, Hero raises to $37

Your hand is huge here on the turn, although it also looks fairly huge, but then you seem to be repping so few value combos that I'd expect no folds from TT-QQ, looks fine as played. I think keeping the fish in with shitty pairs, 9x etc is good on the flop when we have position and can fire away on turns when checked to.

Just looks like it folds out everything you already beat imo.... let him bluff/ value own himself.

Yeah def call turn.

Yeah def call here, by raising you've got the bottom of your value range in his eyes. Call and let him keep thinking you've got a med pp. When you don't raise the flop here, you can't really raise the turn for value, it's not like you got there with air, and with no history he probably doesn't give a random reg credit for being able to turn 66 or w/e into a bluff.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vi-Zer0Skill

I considered raising the flop, but decided that there were very few bad turns (9, A) and I could continue to disguise the strength of my hand as well as possibly keep the fish in the pot by just calling. Do the merits of raising outweigh the value of keeping SB in and underepping my hand?

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I dislike raising the flop or the turn here.

The turn raise looks so strong. If i was villain, I would not be happy if I had something like TT.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gametight

Just looks like it folds out everything you already beat imo.... let him bluff/ value own himself.

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this

id prob 3bet still vs an utg open in MP. Esp. if he is very fishy he may cold call you.

As played, i agree with calling turn. I think opp is gonna value own himself since Id put him on a decent hand (he bet into 2 ppl on flop with a fish having a wide range).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gametight

Just looks like it folds out everything you already beat imo.... let him bluff/ value own himself.

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Yah +1

I don't see how raising this turn possibly folds out "all worse hands" you think he's folding TT-QQ here often given how strange this looks? A lot of regs wont even put AA KK in your range here. I think we can get called by this sorta range here fairly often when we raise turn and jam river:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 37.382% 35.66% 01.72% 2730 132.00 { 99+, A4s }
Hand 1: 62.618% 60.89% 01.72% 4662 132.00 { KK }

But then meh, he may fold the lower part of this sometimes leaving it closer to neutral EVeees, where as he'll defo bet most 9x, TT-QQ on the river again if we flat so I can dig flatting and calling down vs his river barreling range, leaving in any bruffs he might have.

I'm convinced the turn raise turned a profitable spot into a marginal one. so is there a general consensus that it's best to be calling down flop+turn+river rather than raise flop because SB is in the hand and the board texture is so favorable?

btw UTG 3bet jammed and I called. he had pocket nines

would you flat AA on the turn as well? can i have a value raising range on the turn in a vacuum?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vi-Zer0Skill

would you flat AA on the turn as well? can i have a value raising range on the turn in a vacuum?

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I guess I kind of feel like any hand I would want to raise on the turn on this type of board, I probably would have just raised the flop.

Once I call the flop, I'd be trying to balance with the rest of my weaker call down range, by calling this down.

call because u get it in vs his value range on any river anyways + balance + letting him bluff and making his higher FH on river and getting owned.

call bc its nearly same ev as raising and its better for ur range by a lot

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sauce123

call bc its nearly same ev as raising and its better for ur range by a lot

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This is what I was trying to say, but sauce says it better!

yea he`s goona vbet a lot of stuff on the river, that will call a raise on the turn anyways, and than you can jam the river depending on his betsizing. Plus it balances/strenghtens your turn calling range a lot (thats only important if you`re gonna play vs him more hands in the future)

We shove river on any card not T, J or Q, right?