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Villain was 23/18 folds to 3bets 57% and 4bets 2.4%. c-bets 72%.
No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
SB ($19.50)
BB ($50)
UTG ($81.49)
MP ($55.43)
Hero (Button) ($116.57)
Preflop: Hero is Button with J:diamond:, J:heart:
1 fold, MP bets $1.50, Hero raises or call?
3bet is often the best but what do we do if villain 4bets? 5bet Shove? His 4bet is not that loose ...
you at least wanna see the flop here so why not at least call? after 3 bet you gonna fold JJ? if dont wanna commit money just call and see after that.
I think what is more relevant/just as relevant as villains stats in this situation is clearly YOUR stats and his impression of you.
Yeah he seems to flat too many 3 bets in general, but if you've not been 3 betting much at all then you can't count on that being all that relevant here.
Never 3 bet/folding here since it's just too likely he'll 4 bet AK without evidecne to the contrary. He may once in a while 4 bet bluff also, assuming you have a somewhat actvie 3 betting image.
If you've not 3 bet him much then just flat. If you think he'll peel wide vs you in this spot then 3-bet/jam.
basically your value in 3bet/stacking off here is pretty dependent on whether he thinks u can bluff quite often from the BTN, let's say hands like suited connectors, some broadways stuff like that.
if, however, you're playing super nitty say 14/12 and you only 3bet like 3% then i would always flat because he'll probably lay down worse if you 3bet and ship in better.
3betting CO opens from the BU vs loose or semi loose openers is something that can be very profitable as a bluff. Of course you 3bet JJ.
Let's my stats are almost nitty for 5max: 19/15.
This is the question: if we 3bet and get 4bet by villain what do we do? Villain is not going to 4bet bluff us very much ... and jamming is not going to be profitable.
I would very much prefer 3bet stuff like T8s.
What do you guys think?
in this situation i just call... never 3 bet JJ, QQ....cause at 4 bet its def fold or shove... and JJ on shove its risky bussines... just call 2nd bet and see the flop
Razvan perhaps you would be happier posting in the beginners circle? Your knowledge of poker seems very elementary as you have said yourself. This forum isn't meant for learning the basics of the game.
ok sorry :) i know i am way behind you, but can you explain what is the difference in this case between low stakes and high stakes? just asking to learn....
There is a lot of mathematics you need to know in order to solve preflop situations.
You will find a lot of good information here:
http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerforum/beginners-circle/beginners-digest-learning-starts-here-123008.html
On my post before I meant 5bet jam of course.
Why does nobody 3b/fold JJ for value v someone who is only 3bing some % of KK+ unless ofcourse we do have a very nitty image in which case flat but the fact no one mentioned 3b/fold v this type of opponent hurts my head.
it's relatively simple icanhastreebet, if you want to 3bet/fold then do it with OTHER cards than JJ, as a pure bluff. You get away with this BECAUSE you have a nitty image.
the thing is you need a plan, and if you 3bet a strong hand such as JJ+/AK then you are doing it with the INTENTION of stacking off. sure you might think that JJ is often not in great shape but to be honest it is ONLY getting beat by 3 hands: QQ/KK/AA and since there is a 0.45% chance of getting each of those, this represents 1.35% of dealt hands. Say villain is opening 20% of CO then this clearly is an extremely small portion of these hands, whereas AK/AKs already represents a much larger % (not sure exactly but lets say 1.2% ish) of hands.
It was already mentioned that it's important what OUR image is. 19/15 perhaps isnt as important as our 3bet stat, i mean we can be 19/15 with 3bet of 3% or we could have 3bet of 7% right, and the BTN is a very good and popular spot to have the highest 3bet% of any position, so if we have a reasonably high 3bet% it can be quite likely that villain will play back at us as either a bluff or have VALUE 4bet/stack off hands in his range including 99/TT and sometimes AQs type hands which we are crushing with JJ.
This is why we are 3betting JJ for value and never folding in this spot.
Hurts my head as well. This thread should be in the BC.Quote:
Originally Posted by Icanhastreebet
If villain calls a ton of 3bets OOP, why can't we 3bet hands like JJ-TT/AQ for value against his calling range? If we know he 4bets a minuscule range, we can easily fold. It'll be +EV to be 3betting these hands for value if he has a nasty habit of calling hands we dominate OOP.Quote:
Originally Posted by bspahn
We're not 3betting JJ here as a bluff by any means though. It would be for value against a range that he calls.Quote:
Originally Posted by bspahn
:facepalm:Quote:
Originally Posted by bspahn
3bet pre, fold to 4bet if sample size is greater than 400, otherwise jam
part of this that's bugging me is that a 4bet range of 2.4% indeed SEEMS extremely tight, but is it? my own is possibly even less than that and a ton of 1/2 regs i'm playing with are also around this, yet I have certain positions where I can have a lot of 4bet bluffs such as CO vs BTN, BTN vs blinds etc, and 2.4% doesn't tell you anything about whether the person flats with hands sometimes either and that skews the % around.
I mean let's say I open UTG and i get 3bet from CO by like a "tag reg", i mean maybe my 4bet % here is exactly 2% but that could mean so many things... i mean i'm probably flatting JJ/QQ/AK here and only 4betting KK/AA but also throwing in the odd 4bet bluff, because I know that if I 4bet/stack off hands like JJ/AK utg against a lot of people they're simply in pretty bad shape right.
i suppose the conclusion is like everything else, its what you know about the player thats more important than what the stat % says, which is why i'm still struggling such a ridiculous amount with this damn game... all i see is stats and i never know any real stuff about my opponents :(
You're probably confusing 4bet range with 4bet%. There's a big difference.
4bet range is calculated as PFR x 4bet%. So if your PFR is 20% and your 4bet is 10%, then your 4bet range is 2%.
OP says villain "4bets 2.4%" which is really low. If he meant his 4bet range is 2.4, then that would mean his 4bet% is 13.3% which would make this an easy stack off preflop.
3bet/fold to 4bet here is boss...especially with this dude's stats and being that 50nl players will not be playing overly aggro pre (with regards to 4betting etc)
Haven't read all the posts but I 3bet here bc I think villain calls way too much, and that's good, right? Not sure what my plan is if he 4bets. I probably flat and be confused for the rest of the hand. Maybe 3bet/fold is correct but I'm a fish and I'll never fold my JJ like that XD
If you flat a 4bet here vs jamming, especially 100bb, you are burning money and will get owned most of the time. No reason to flat JJ to a 4bet pre.Quote:
Originally Posted by Juked07
hey!
no i wasn't confused, but perhaps read/interpreted the stat incorrectly. I assumed that 2.4% was 4bet range since it sounded very standard to me (mostly what ive seen is like anywhere from 1% to 3.5% 4bet ranges out there)
if the guy really really never 4bets and consequently he actually only 4bets 2.4% of the time yea agree u gotta fold like almost everything, but thats like only one 4bet over a pretty damn large sample if you ask me, seems unlikely...
Quote:
Originally Posted by JL
I didn't know this. Wow. And HeM only has 4b range. I am getting 4bet so much more than I thought (especially 6max)Quote:
Originally Posted by JL
It only means that they 4 bet 13.3% of the times they are 3 bet correct?
Correct. You have to be the PFRer and get 3bet. It doesn't include the times you cold 4bet someone.Quote:
Originally Posted by ilikeaces86
HEM does not only have 4bet range. They have "vs 3bet Raise%" which is the same thing as 4bet%.Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce123
In the Reports page under stat selection, you can add "vs 3bet Fold%", "vs 3bet Call%", and "vs 3bet Raise%". All three of these added together will equal 100%.
I find 4bet range kind of useless. Here is the definition on holdemmanager.com:
A typical reg might have a 4bet% of say 15% and a total PFR of 20%, so their 4bet range is 3%. This seems quite narrow.Quote:
Total PFR multiplied by Total 4bet %.. The thing to keep in mind is that most 4bet situations will involve later positions and PFR and 4bet % will be higher from late position than the overall PFR and 4bet would be.
However, what if this same reg is opening 60% on the BTN and 4betting 20% when he is 3bet from the blinds. Now his 4bet range is 12%. If he is only stacking off with TT+, AQ+ (4.7% of hands), that means he is folding to a 5bet shove over 60% of the time.
So the 4bet range of 3% in this case doesn't help us at all.
HEM has a "4bet" stat (above 4bet range) in the general popup...so not sure why you all are saying there is no 4bet stat. Am I missing something?
Yeah there is one there, but there isn't one in the Reports tab for some reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by DBRose
if he thinks you are nitty i would 3-bet fold
do you guys use 4B range or 4B %? i fild 4B % more usefull, obv when adjusted to positions (like if its 10%,i assume its like 15% BUvsCO/blinds and less in UTG/MP positions etc..)
3Bfolding w JJ seems kinda nasty vs regs who`ll mostly play 4B/fold OOP, i think if you never 3B him before just ccall, if you did - 3B/get it in is fine
I would just call to see the flop. You know, set mine.