Call a 5bet shove with Jacks?

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06-24-2011, 11:31 PM
PKKFW

Call a 5bet shove with Jacks?

Villain is 33/14 but only over 14 hands. Thing was, he had already 3bet 4 times which seemed excessive to me. One of those 3bets he showed down with AKs and didn't need to show down the others. No one had 4bet back into him which is part of the reason why I 4bet with my jacks. I wanted to see if he was just trying to run over the table or would cave to some more pressure.

His 5bet shove had me thinking he must have a good hand or is a complete donkey bluffing with air so this is what I've come up with in pokerstove....

58,218,336 games 0.044 secs 1,323,144,000 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 36.190% 35.98% 00.21% 20947296 121978.00 { JcJd }
Hand 1: 63.810% 63.60% 00.21% 37027084 121978.00 { QQ+, AKs, AKo }

I need 30.8% equity to call and have 36% against this range so it's a call.

If I take out AKo my equity goes down to 24% so that's how tight the range here is.

So my questions.....
1: Does my range seem right?
2: Anyone else 4betting here with reads given?
3: Thoughts on the play?

Btw, since by the range I've assigned it's a call, I figured I'd leave the post flop in there as I did make the call. The questions are not results driven though, it's just that afterwards I thought about it, considered the fact I only had 14 hands on him etc and began wondering if maybe it was just too aggressive or whatever.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (8 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG ($10.64)
Hero (UTG+1) ($10.14)
MP1 ($8)
MP2 ($4.30)
CO ($9.85)
Button ($10.64)
SB ($19.30)
BB ($9.70)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...es/diamond.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ilies/club.gif
1 fold, Hero bets $0.35, 3 folds, Button calls $0.35, 1 fold, BB raises to $1.35, Hero raises to $3.60, 1 fold, BB raises to $9.70 (All-In), Hero calls $6.10

Flop: ($19.80) 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ilies/club.gif, 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ilies/club.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/heart.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: ($19.80) 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ilies/club.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($19.80) Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ilies/club.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $19.80 | Rake: $0.99
06-24-2011, 11:48 PM
rpm

i wouldn't be 4betting a hand like JJ unless you plan to felt it. especially against people who seem to be aggressive preflop. also you 4b pretty large here, i think i prefer something like $3 with whatever range i decide to 4b.

as played, yes you have enough equity against his shoving range to call.
06-25-2011, 12:12 AM
Shotglass

Quote:

Originally Posted by rpm

i wouldn't be 4betting a hand like JJ unless you plan to felt it.

+1
06-25-2011, 12:28 AM
PKKFW

Quote:

Originally Posted by rpm

i wouldn't be 4betting a hand like JJ unless you plan to felt it. especially against people who seem to be aggressive preflop.

Good point. I think with the fact he had 3bet 4 times in little more than a single revolution I had pretty much made up my mind that I was going to felt it anyway. Just sort of second guessing after the fact I suppose.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rpm

also you 4b pretty large here, i think i prefer something like $3 with whatever range i decide to 4b.

Noted. I'm still working on bet sizing. With most raises I usually try to go somewhere in the range of 2.5-3x the bet I'm facing but I'm sure that's not optimal in every situation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rpm

as played, yes you have enough equity against his shoving range to call.

So you think the range I gave him for shoving is pretty accurate? I understand we probably can't really make a truly informed decision based on only 14 hands though.
06-25-2011, 01:53 AM
rpm

yeah QQ+,AK seems like a reasonable shoving range for villain i guess.
06-25-2011, 02:04 AM
tiltingdonkey

How can a 33/14 over 14 hands possibly 3bet 4 times? Isn't a 3bet counted as PFR? If that's the case then he should have raised/3bet just two hands over that sample right? Or does this include post flop 3bet stats?

Am I missing something?
06-25-2011, 03:39 AM
PKKFW

Quote:

Originally Posted by tiltingdonkey

How can a 33/14 over 14 hands possibly 3bet 4 times? Isn't a 3bet counted as PFR? If that's the case then he should have raised/3bet just two hands over that sample right? Or does this include post flop 3bet stats?

Am I missing something?

Sorry meant 33/24 rather than 33/14......probably typed 14 cause I was thinking 14 hands.
06-25-2011, 03:44 AM
oskar

^^
this

stats are bs.
If he really has 3-bet four times in that sample I would say it's ok to 4bet/get it in in this spot. If btn wasnt there I would prefer a call.
Be carefull with tendencies over small samples tho. It's entirely possible he just had a run of hands. I tend to go by the "fool me three times, shame on you... fool me four or more times and I should prolly adjust" - rule
06-25-2011, 03:46 AM
oskar

Quote:

Originally Posted by PKKFW

Sorry meant 33/24 rather than 33/14......probably typed 14 cause I was thinking 14 hands.

should still be .29 pfr at least, but close enough.
06-25-2011, 05:18 AM
supa

Quote:

Originally Posted by oskar

^^
this

stats are bs.
If he really has 3-bet four times in that sample I would say it's ok to 4bet/get it in in this spot. If btn wasnt there I would prefer a call.
Be carefull with tendencies over small samples tho. It's entirely possible he just had a run of hands. I tend to go by the "fool me three times, shame on you... fool me four or more times and I should prolly adjust" - rule

Absolutely everything Oscar said. There should be no worries getting Js in against this guy. Just be weary of the fact that he might be running hot. More often than not he isn't. (drunk post)
06-25-2011, 08:02 AM
Miffed22001

why does this just seem like setting money on fire to me?
06-25-2011, 08:48 AM
Hoopy

Once you 4bet here calling a shove is mandatory though i wouldn't be thrilled. His 5bet jamming range is definitely QQ+, AK and I'd probably add JJ/TT AQ since he's already 3bet 4 times + a few combo's of air.

Flatting preflop might be better than 4bet/calling since we have position but I don't give credit for an unknown being able to polarize his 3betting range here to {KK+, air}. 4bet calling can't be that bad though.
06-26-2011, 01:43 PM
tiltingdonkey

Quote:

Originally Posted by PKKFW

Sorry meant 33/24 rather than 33/14......probably typed 14 cause I was thinking 14 hands.

Yeah, I was just wondering if all those 3bets were done preflop. Given this I tend to give villains a much wider range and TT/JJ probably falls in that range. I call but not fist pumping.
06-26-2011, 01:51 PM
Nekrogovner

Quote:

Originally Posted by tiltingdonkey

Yeah, I was just wondering if all those 3bets were done preflop. Given this I tend to give villains a much wider range and TT/JJ probably falls in that range. I call but not fist pumping.

All 3bets are done preflop. Postflop its called reraise.

Ontopic, with only 14 hands played its really hard to say if he is just super aggressive, or has a lucky run, but I would call/shove that, I even expect him to have some mid pocket pairs there like 77-99. But bear in mind, if it looks like aces, even when played by a fish, then it probably is aces. :D
06-26-2011, 04:44 PM
tiltingdonkey

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nekrogovner

All 3bets are done preflop. Postflop its called reraise.

lol!
06-26-2011, 06:04 PM
OngBonga

"All 3bets are done preflop. Postflop its called reraise."

Hey, I'm the forum idiot, stop trying to take my role.
06-26-2011, 07:37 PM
Shotglass

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nekrogovner

All 3bets are done preflop. Postflop its called reraise.

:shipit:

wtf
06-26-2011, 07:44 PM
bikes

@OP obviously call it off when you 4b it. And 4bing is the correct play against the likely maniac.