Connecticut School Shooting/China School Knifing

A few links to news stories about this.

Connecticut school shooting deaths include children - TwinCities.com
Elementary school massacre: 26 dead, including 18 kids, in Connecticut - U.S. News
At least 27, including 18 children, dead in Connecticut school shooting: report | Reuters

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Updated at 1:30 p.m. ET: A young man clad in black and carrying two handguns shot up an elementary school in a small Connecticut town on Friday, leaving 18 small children and eight adults dead in one the nation’s worst school massacres, law enforcement officials said.

The gunman, described as a 20-year-old man from Connecticut, was later found dead, a federal law enforcement official told NBC News.

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Also related: Knife attack at Chinese school wounds 22 children - CNN.com

WTF is wrong with people!

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... it emerged that one entire classroom of students may remain unaccounted for, local sources reported.

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BBC News - '27 dead' in Connecticut primary school shooting

If I hear one person suggest to me in person that this happened because teachers aren't armed, that person is going to be immediately struck by fierce and repeated blows to the face and body. Fair warning.

sad face

shit sucks man.

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Originally Posted by givememyleg

sad face

shit sucks man.

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this, horrible horrible news :(

I feel sorry for the teachers without arms. It must be really tough to make powerpoints or write on the whiteboard.

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The mother of the suspected gunman was also among the dead at the school, a senior law enforcement official familiar with the investigation told CNN, while the suspect's brother was found dead in a residential location in Hoboken, New Jersey.

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From Connecticut school shooting claims nearly 30 lives, source says - CNN.com

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The Associated Press, citing a law enforcement official, identified the shooter as Ryan Lanza and said his younger brother is being held for questioning as a possible second shooter. Local authorities would not confirm the name of the shooter.

The law enforcement official said the boys' mother, Nancy Lanza, works at the school as a teacher. She is among the dead, an official said.

The official also said Ryan Lanza's girlfriend and another friend are missing in New Jersey.

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From 27 Dead, Including 20 Children, At Sandy Hook School Shooting In Newtown - Courant.com

Both Fox News and MSNBC are reporting that he shot and killed his father before coming to the school as well.

I want to vomit at all the reporters who kept interviewing all the shocked kids and the parents of the dead kids.

If you're going to kill yourself. Just kill yourself. You don't go to a higher hall of Valhalla for taking 20 others with you, you assholes.

I watched some middle aged dick of a reporter challanging a kid whilst conducting a live interview with the kid and his mum, saying he was exaggerating and hadn't actually been that close to the action. If he said that to my kid that interview would've got mighty interesting to watch pretty dam quickly.

Yeah, but your kid would have been safe at the school for specials next door.

Fuck Everything, Nation Reports | The Onion - America's Finest News Source

This issue cannot be addressed until somebody in the media has the miraculous epiphany that the Second Amendment has nothing to do with protecting yourself against a government you disagree with but against invading Native Americans in colonial regions where there was no government police force. This would then allow people to consider the fact that guns are not always the answer and that if you don't have them you're committing a fundamental Constitutional sin

The blame can be put on just about anything, but the bottom line is that a prerequisite for a shift on gun policy is the introduction into the national conversation that the NRA does not represent the Second Amendment in the slightest.

Human beings are just machines. Sometimes we malfunction and there isn't much that can be done about it.

19 000 children die each day from preventable causes. Just to put some perspective on the matter.

I heard about this on the way home from work. The only thing I could think about is how much I hope they didn't kill that fucker and that for quite some time he could get repeatedly ass raped while 4 other people beat the shit out of him.

Then I thought that if I had the ability to kill the guy I would tie him to a chair and light him on fire. Then put the fire out. Then light it again. And do this as many times as I could until he either died or I found a better way to cause him pain.

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Originally Posted by rong

I watched some middle aged dick of a reporter challanging a kid whilst conducting a live interview with the kid and his mum, saying he was exaggerating and hadn't actually been that close to the action. If he said that to my kid that interview would've got mighty interesting to watch pretty dam quickly.

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Except you wouldn't have subjected your kid to doing an interview immediately after the most traumatic thing he's likely to be a part of in his life... right?

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Originally Posted by supa

I heard about this on the way home from work. The only thing I could think about is how much I hope they didn't kill that fucker and that for quite some time he could get repeatedly ass raped while 4 other people beat the shit out of him.

Then I thought that if I had the ability to kill the guy I would tie him to a chair and light him on fire. Then put the fire out. Then light it again. And do this as many times as I could until he either died or I found a better way to cause him pain.

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meh... I understand this response, but meh...

How about we start being self reflective as a society, instead of judging the outcomes of our society? I'm not saying these guys shouldn't be judged, but this seems to be a cultural flaw, and being angry at one perpetrator and punishing them in the most extreme ways only serves to alleviate us of our own guilt. Also note that these are often masacre/suicides, so threat of punishment for these types of crimes is nonsensical.

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Originally Posted by supa

I heard about this on the way home from work. The only thing I could think about is how much I hope they didn't kill that fucker and that for quite some time he could get repeatedly ass raped while 4 other people beat the shit out of him.

Then I thought that if I had the ability to kill the guy I would tie him to a chair and light him on fire. Then put the fire out. Then light it again. And do this as many times as I could until he either died or I found a better way to cause him pain.

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I feel sorry for both the villain and the victims.

Too much hate.

I find it to be rather interesting that the same people(fox news) who are saying "this is not the time to discuss gun control!" are also saying "see, teachers should be aloud to have guns in the school!"

Absolutely horrific, those poor people.:(

I'm in CT...This is Horrendous anywhere it happens.

I agree with Supa. You don't fuck with kids and, if you do, you deserve to be tortured for days on end.

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Originally Posted by pocketfours

I feel sorry for both the villain and the victims.

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Canadian blood runs thick in you.

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Originally Posted by boost

I find it to be rather interesting that the same people(fox news) who are saying "this is not the time to discuss gun control!" are also saying "see, teachers should be aloud to have guns in the school!"

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Interesting because you're interested in picking off reasons to hate on Fuck's News?

Though, Jon Stewart had a really well timed bit about gun control recently that should hopefully at least have gun control be part of the conversation.

If guns aren't the problem, it shouldn't be difficult to defend that position. And I'm tired of people taking the clever tact of refusing to acknowledge the problem for fear of the chance that you don't like the solutions found.

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Originally Posted by BennyLaRue

If I hear one person suggest to me in person that this happened because teachers aren't armed, that person is going to be immediately struck by fierce and repeated blows to the face and body. Fair warning.

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Originally Posted by JKDS

I feel sorry for the teachers without arms. It must be really tough to make powerpoints or write on the whiteboard.

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Nice.

"Someone used ________ to kill people, so we should put tighter regulations on ________," is a solid enough argument.

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Originally Posted by spoonitnow

"Someone used ________ to kill people, so we should put tighter regulations on ________," is a solid enough argument.

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Is that the argument? Or is it that guns increase a persons ability to kill, and some people are more likely to kill. How do we keep those likely to kill from the augmented killing power of guns?

Or maybe:

Far too many members of our society are fucking mental psychopaths wanting to kill themselves and as many others as possible on route. Why is that? And what can we do to reduce it?

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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Is that the argument? Or is it that guns increase a persons ability to kill, and some people are more likely to kill. How do we keep those likely to kill from the augmented killing power of guns?

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It is for a lot of people.

This argument is equally off the mark.

You can't protect people by disarming them.

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Originally Posted by spoonitnow

It is for a lot of people.

This argument is equally off the mark.

You can't protect people by disarming them.

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You think I'm arguing for gun control. I'm just trying to nail down the problem. These problems shouldn't be a battle of wits to win.

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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

You think I'm arguing for gun control. I'm just trying to nail down the problem. These problems shouldn't be a battle of wits to win.

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Nailing down the problem is simple: Someone decided that he had a good enough reason to hurt a bunch of people when he really didn't. Unfortunately, it's a very complicated problem that can't be completely solved inside of our culture. Also unfortunately, a lot of people get distracted by the tool that was used instead of what the actual problem is.

Or maybe parents should pay for higher security at schools. If we deregulate guns even further and slash public mental health services, the danger to children will create a huge incentive for parents to spend on security. That's job-creation right there.

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Originally Posted by spoonitnow

Nailing down the problem is simple: Someone decided that he had a good enough reason to hurt a bunch of people when he really didn't.

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This doesn't really seem like an isolated incident. I can recall other times were people shot up malls, colleges, schools, movie theaters. Each of them seemingly irrational actors causing huge damages.

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Originally Posted by spoonitnow

Unfortunately, it's a very complicated problem that can't be completely solved inside of our culture.

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Step one is define the problem. Complicated or no, solvable or otherwise, it's always step one.

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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

This doesn't really seem like an isolated incident. I can recall other times were people shot up malls, colleges, schools, movie theaters. Each of them seemingly irrational actors causing huge damages.

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It's not an isolated incident.

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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Step one is define the problem. Complicated or no, solvable or otherwise, it's always step one.

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Durrrr.

Not to make it sound like I can comprehend the ability for any human to use any lethal force against any human, but this person has to be a whole completely different level of fucked up from the Columbine shooters, et all. I can't imagine how fucked up your wiring has to be for you to be able to aim a gun 2 feet off the ground and shoot a human that's still developing the ability for speech in the chest.

I'm sure that narcissism and "oh my god, I'll be famous," has something to do with a lot of these shootings and shit like that.

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Originally Posted by spoonitnow

Durrrr.

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Yeah, my ire is what you want. Discussions can be so boring with out some good anger.

Someone might have a better way to define the problem than you or I, so it's worth pointing out.

Just sick. There are no other words.

I'm sure there are a lot of reasons why this shit seems to happen.
I remember being in a group about 3 years ago and someone said that they felt it would start to happen more often b/c people are feeling more hopeless nowadays.


I'm also going out on a limb and assuming he was on some sort of mind altering drug to curb a mental illness. It would be nice if they could find a new way to treat these people real fast....

We have pretty strict gun control laws here in Canada and while we dont have the mass shootings like you do, we still have a very large black market for gun sales. If people want one, they get one illegally.

I also really hate the media in times like this. Its great to get the real story out but having pics of kids crying on the front of the website, just so the site can have a real big story drives me f'n insane. A good chuink of the initial info is BS anyways....

Remember the Columbine story that broke shortly afterwards that the school had a gang called the black Mafia (or something along that line)? All it was, was a name given to 2-4 kids in the school who dressed like that but reporters needed to create a sensational story about some gang working within the school. It was pathetic to listen to.

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Originally Posted by spoonitnow

Nailing down the problem is simple: Someone decided that he had a good enough reason to hurt a bunch of people when he really didn't. Unfortunately, it's a very complicated problem that can't be completely solved inside of our culture. Also unfortunately, a lot of people get distracted by the tool that was used instead of what the actual problem is.

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The problem is simple, but then it's complicated. It's a problem in our society, yet it can't be solved in our culture. The problem is complicated, but by god, there is no way that it is inclusive of the tool.

This was possibly the worst (I'm assuming) non-troll post of yours I've ever seen.

There is a problem, and if we prefer to prevent future occurrences, then we need to do something about it. Expressing extreme rage towards dead people is not "doing something." So maybe further gun control measures aren't the answer. But just shrugging and saying "man, people are just fucked up, and shit happens..." is contemptible-- and even more so when it's a response to someone who is actually attempting to open up a open ended unbiased forum seeking a solution.

I really dont get the problem. It seems clear that our goal is to limit shootings, and gun control is one way to do that. Alternatives being help for potential wrongdoers which isnt really an option given our current ability to help them, and heightened security which really wouldn't solve any problems.

Why should gun control be excluded from any discussion? Whilst guns are not responsible for the incident, there's no denying that it would have been more difficult to reach as high a death toll with a handgun as opposed to an assault rifle. I mean who in the hell needs an assault rifle besides a soldier? I just don't understand how ownership of such a powerful weapon is justified.

Writing laws and regulations only affects lawful people.

Gun ownership is largely a regional thing. In rural America, it is hugely common to see a gun rack in the back window of any pickup truck (by far the most common vehicle). Many of the people I've met in farm country are firearms enthusiasts who own semi- and full automatic rifles, 50 cal sniper rifles, etc. The fact that almost everyone owns multiple guns doesn't correlate to increased rates of violent crime. The fact they many of them own assault rifles and other military weapons doesn't make them violent people.

Regulations do not make anything harder to acquire; they just increase the price and risk of acquisition. Illegal guns and drugs are readily accessible to anyone who wants them and is willing to participate in the black market.

a guy stabbed 20 kids and theyre still alive; another guy shot 20 kids and theyre dead. game set match

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Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

Writing laws and regulations only affects lawful people.

Gun ownership is largely a regional thing. In rural America, it is hugely common to see a gun rack in the back window of any pickup truck (by far the most common vehicle). Many of the people I've met in farm country are firearms enthusiasts who own semi- and full automatic rifles, 50 cal sniper rifles, etc. The fact that almost everyone owns multiple guns doesn't correlate to increased rates of violent crime. The fact they many of them own assault rifles and other military weapons doesn't make them violent people.

Regulations do not make anything harder to acquire; they just increase the price and risk of acquisition. Illegal guns and drugs are readily accessible to anyone who wants them and is willing to participate in the black market.

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Most of this is false dude. There are enormous correlations with gun levels and gun deaths and theyre easy to acquire precisely because the laws are lax. It's easier to buy a gun legally than it is to get a prescription for back pain

If risk and price goes up to acquire a gun, then you've necessarily made it harder to acquire a gun.

Further, most school shooters/etc are not unlawful people prior to doing it. Example the movie theater shooter in oregon that was completing his graduate degree.

The issue isnt that guns kill people or make people violent. Its that the wrong people with a gun has increased his killing ability by an unreasonable amount and the best solution is to restrict that ability.

Yeah, the whole "if gun control is stricter, then only criminals will have guns" is a moot argument in relation to mass shootings.

Also, the argument being made really that if guns are harder to acquire, they won't be harder to acquire?

And please don't compare prohibition on drugs to gun control. One creates a "victemless crime", the other... well you can see the title of the thread.

http://i.imgur.com/Fqcro.jpg

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Originally Posted by BennyLaRue

If I hear one person suggest to me in person that this happened because teachers aren't armed, that person is going to be immediately struck by fierce and repeated blows to the face and body. Fair warning.

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You think many teachers are gonna be happy if they are forced to carry guns in order to protect students? Teachers are supposed to teach, IMO

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Originally Posted by ISillyDurrrAK

You think many teachers are gonna be happy if they are forced to carry guns in order to protect students

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No.

Is that the end of this line of questioning?

Haven't read all the stuff posted...but.............but...........why does it keep in happening America?

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Originally Posted by spoonitnow

Nailing down the problem is simple: Someone decided that he had a good enough reason to hurt a bunch of people when he really didn't. Unfortunately, it's a very complicated problem that can't be completely solved inside of our culture. Also unfortunately, a lot of people get distracted by the tool that was used instead of what the actual problem is.

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Said tool is way too efficient at doing its job

I feel as though strict gun control is a way of addressing the symptoms of the problem rather than addressing the problem.

A few of the sources that I could think of as a problem is one of / combination of the following:
- societal influences
- genetic/neurological defects
- environment

These sources are the reason why it is impossible to predict such occurrences. We simply are not educated enough in any of the three.

I get frustrated from time to time when I hear things like what happened in CT, China, 9/11, the dumbass at the corner store, the idiot on the phone for customer service, the pedophile in jail, and even my own family members. But I don't hate them nor do I think they are bad people. They're not bad, they're defected or misguided or not educated or not up to par culturally. Free will is closer to the side of illusion than it is to reality.

I'm a high school teacher. Teachers shouldn't have guns.

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Originally Posted by BankItDrew

I feel as though strict gun control is a way of addressing the symptoms of the problem rather than addressing the problem.

A few of the sources that I could think of as a problem is one of / combination of the following:
- societal influences
- genetic/neurological defects
- environment

These sources are the reason why it is impossible to predict such occurrences. We simply are not educated enough in any of the three.

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So, in lieu of the capability to treat the source of the problem, should we not attempt to alleviate the symptoms?

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Originally Posted by boost

So, in lieu of the capability to treat the source of the problem, should we not attempt to alleviate the symptoms?

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Absolutely. I hate guns. Just keep it in mind that eliminating guns will not alleviate us from people going postal. Unfortunately, strict gun control will be considered a walk in the park compared to treating mental health - which is the underlying problem.

No, IMO the underlying problem is a bloodthirsty American culture, a culture which glorifies guns and death more than any other culture in the world. The same number of psychos per 100,000 are born randomly in every other country but this shit doesn't happen nearly as often except in America.

this event is incredibly sad. For everyone involved. I wish shit like this didn't happen..

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Originally Posted by pocketfours

Human beings are just machines. Sometimes we malfunction and there isn't much that can be done about it.

19 000 children die each day from preventable causes. Just to put some perspective on the matter.

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wonder how many kids were killed by US military this year, for further context.

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Originally Posted by supa

I heard about this on the way home from work. The only thing I could think about is how much I hope they didn't kill that fucker and that for quite some time he could get repeatedly ass raped while 4 other people beat the shit out of him.

Then I thought that if I had the ability to kill the guy I would tie him to a chair and light him on fire. Then put the fire out. Then light it again. And do this as many times as I could until he either died or I found a better way to cause him pain.

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this disturbs me a lot

I'm not sure Americuh is bloodthirsty. Besides, a bloodthirsty culture and a defective social structure are one and the same. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if this shit did happen just as often in other countries. I'm thinking: China, India, Iran... The story of the knife-wielding Chinese man posted by OP shows up as the slightest blip on our radar because it happened on the same day and was considered because of the weapon used. Otherwise, only a few people in Americuh would read about it and even less would care.

On second thought, people everywhere are irrationally bloodthirsty immediately following these stories, not so much before.

(inspired by supa)

Sad

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Originally Posted by BankItDrew

On second thought, people everywhere are irrationally bloodthirsty immediately following these stories, not so much before.

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This is the only one of these types stories that has ever actually gotten any emotion out of me (I'm generally pretty numb to these stories). This man killed innocent children who haven't even begun their lives. These children must've been really excited about Santa coming in under two weeks. Their classrooms decorated with Christmas things and them learning numbers and letters. Their souls haven't been tainted by the world. It just really gets to me that someone can actually do this.

Because I recently began teaching Kindergarten children, this story has shaken me a bit (I'm not saying I have more of a right to be touched by the story, I'm just stating why it struck a chord). I know Supa has children of his own which is, I'm sure, why he said what he said. I'm sure he stands by it and I share the same general feeling. Obviously, those with parents may feel even stronger than how I feel. Fuck this guy that aimed low and killed innocent children while stealing the innocence of other children in the school. You don't fuck with children and, if you do, I'd have no problem watching you being tortured.

Is it OK to feel this way? Definitely not. Is it cool to share these feelings publicly (say on Facebook)? No way. That just causes more problems. I feel FTR is an OK place for me to vent and share these types of frustrations since most on this forum (the commune) are rational and are able to take part in a calm discussion about this.

Anywho, just thought I'd share my feelings. Maybe I'm totally off-base. I wouldn't mind hearing from parents or other teachers about their feelings towards this guy. If not willing to share on a public forum, I guess a PM would be fine. Anyway, I probably sound just as bad as this guy but it is what it is.

There's nothing wrong or unusual about wanting revenge and/or punishment. Especially in cases such as this as people can feel that the deed was never properly punished as the suicide was part if the guys plan and therefore can't be seen as a punishment. I guess appropriate revenge and punishment also serves to give some closure to those effected.

It takes a strong and intelligent person to feel for the person that kills children, especially your own. It may even be impossible for a non sociopath as tour own emotions would disrupt any logical thinking.

To those saying this is an American problem, do some Googling. Wikipedia can show more of these kind of incidents than most would imagine took place.

Holy fuck, there's been so many school massacres that they need their own wiki page as only the first 15 are shown on the rampage killers page. Same for workplace massacres.

Also, to all the Brits out there, we've had 2 massacres in most of our lifetimes, one in a school, ie Dunblane and then more recently Derek Bird. If you consider population differences between us and the US we're not so different. Gun control hasn't made much difference over here.

List of rampage killers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

List of rampage killers: School massacres - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

List of rampage killers: Workplace killings - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Whoops! Forgot the hungerford massacre on 87, we've had 3 in my lifetime.

Culture seems to be working as a catch-all here. It's America's bloodthirsty culture. Its hero worshiping culture. Its celebrity culture. Its cultural demand to be unique and special.

If culture were the problem, than the Christian Right would be right in saying that we should work to create a culture that celebrates Jesus.

And besides, what creates those cultures in a place like America? I've always considered myself to be of no culture. And that's certainly another of America's cultural sterotypes.

And what thirsts do other cultures have? Like the middle-eastern culture of suicide bombing over school shooting.

Jesus fucking Christ. You yanks are nuts. I was well out above, you've had 12 mass shootings this year alone.

U.S. mass shootings in 2012 - The Washington Post

https://www.google.com/#hl=en&tbo=d&...w=1920&bih=971

^School Attacks in China for 2010-2011 (this link blows for some reason, I'm putting in the google search instead)

It's hard to find similar link for India, which I find strange.

Rio de Janeiro school shooting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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Originally Posted by boost

The problem is simple, but then it's complicated. It's a problem in our society, yet it can't be solved in our culture. The problem is complicated, but by god, there is no way that it is inclusive of the tool.

This was possibly the worst (I'm assuming) non-troll post of yours I've ever seen.

There is a problem, and if we prefer to prevent future occurrences, then we need to do something about it. Expressing extreme rage towards dead people is not "doing something." So maybe further gun control measures aren't the answer. But just shrugging and saying "man, people are just fucked up, and shit happens..." is contemptible-- and even more so when it's a response to someone who is actually attempting to open up a open ended unbiased forum seeking a solution.

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I never said the problem was simple. Learn to read.

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Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer

Said tool is way too efficient at doing its job

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The biggest school mass murder in US history used no guns:

Bath School disaster - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It kind of kills the whole "if we remove guns, then this won't happen" argument dead in its tracks.

The problem with this kind of stuff going on so much more in recent years doesn't have anything to do with guns. The tool is not the problem.

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Originally Posted by spoonitnow

It kind of kills the whole "if we remove guns, then this won't happen" argument dead in its tracks.

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That's not the argument though. No one is so fool as to believe it will cure the problem. But it would likely be a force for reducing the number of dead and dying moving forward, wouldn't you agree?