CBet V No Cbet

Just going to post some hands here and hopefully get some advice on whether my thinking is correct when thinking about cbets. Will also help me examine my ranges in spots and should point out any glaring flaws I have in my ranges.

Hopefully will get quite a few hands posted in this thread eventually.

Hand 1

Spoiler: Show

Table is loose passive.

My opening range from MP looks something like

55+, A8s+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs+, T9s+, ATo+, KJo+, QJo+

This is 14.8%, 196 combos

Stacks:
UTG ImSavy ($2) 100bb
CO Player3 ($4.68) 234bb
BTN Player4 ($0.22) 11bb
SB Player5 ($2.69) 135bb
BB Player6 ($4.57) 229bb

Pre-Flop: ($0.03, 5 players) ImSavy is UTG :td: :ad:
ImSavy raises to $0.06, Player3 calls $0.06, 3 folds

Standard raise size is 3bb, on a table like this I think I should maybe up this to 4bb as my range in spots like this is going to be value heavy.

Villain is 43/5/4.8 (42 hands), positionally unaware and has called 3/3cbets.

SPR = 12.93

Flop: :4d: :7c: :8d: ($0.15, 2 players)
ImSavy ?

As villain is loose passive and is calling a very high % of cbets and not attacking our checking range, I think my cbet range should be heavily weighted towards value whilst checking all my weaker hands. There is nothing to suggest he will attempt to exploit this strategy.

As our SPR = 13 this would allow us 3 pot sized bets.

After blockers on the flop we have a possible 186c (15.82% possible hands)

Value betting all Ad9d+ (5), AdJ+ (9), A8s (3), 55+ (51), T9s (4), JdTd (1), KdTd+ (3), AK (12), QdTd+ (2)

This is 90/186 which is just over 48% which I think I should be betting the pot with.

This leaves me checking a lot of overcards which still have value if they hit the turn/river.

I'm confused, how is betting JTs here a value bet?

I'm so lost, where are your 98s type hands for top pair that you should definitely be betting? 44? 87s? Also you mention checking behind, but you're first to act? edit: i see you're folding these hands pf, which im not sure i would do but i guess that's fine? i personally play a bit wider.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by eugmac

I'm confused, how is betting JTs here a value bet?

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Fixed, meant JTd

Quote:

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Originally Posted by eugmac

I'm so lost, where are your 98s type hands for top pair that you should definitely be betting? 44? 87s? Also you mention checking behind, but you're first to act? edit: i see you're folding these hands pf, which im not sure i would do but i guess that's fine? i personally play a bit wider.

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Fixed, just meant check.

My opening range is probably a bit tight and I'm going to work on widening it.

If your planning on widening your opening range from MP you should consider opening all suited A's and suited connectors. I would consider c-betting less than this vs this opponent if he's calling tonnes of c-bets. I'd only be betting strong made hands and big draws without any idea of how he plays on later streets i.e whether he's intent on looking you up at showdown with 2nd or 3rd pair for example. It would be a good idea to look at villains pre-flop range vs his continuing range on the flop to get an estimate of how often he's folding.

Edit - Another thing to consider when contemplating making a c-bet is the board texture and the likelihood villain will raise your bet, things i would think about would be; How likely is it that villain will be raising his top pair hands to protect them from draws, and how often will villain be raising a semi-bluff on this board?

I don't like playing suited connectors against villains like this. On the majority of flops 87s is just 8-high, which is terrible if you're playing against an opponent who is unlikely to fold. And even if you flop a flush draw, you might be drawing to the second best hand since this type of villain gets a 43% vpip by playing hands like Kxs and Qxs.

As for cbetting all your draws, what is your plan on the turn when you miss?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by seven-deuce

Edit - Another thing to consider when contemplating making a c-bet is the board texture and the likelihood villain will raise your bet, things i would think about would be; How likely is it that villain will be raising his top pair hands to protect them from draws, and how often will villain be raising a semi-bluff on this board?

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I did think about things like that, he never is.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Malbrack

I don't like playing suited connectors against villains like this. On the majority of flops 87s is just 8-high, which is terrible if you're playing against an opponent who is unlikely to fold. And even if you flop a flush draw, you might be drawing to the second best hand since this type of villain gets a 43% vpip by playing hands like Kxs and Qxs.

As for cbetting all your draws, what is your plan on the turn when you miss?

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If I completely miss the board I can quite happily check and expect this person to check too.

with overcards + nut FD OOP HU it's a default Cbet, ur either ahead, or have many outs or ur waiting for a passive villain to do your job?

Excellent analysis. You're going to love my article this week since it fits this hand perfectly.

Also, 4x pre-flop as a standard because of the heavy rake. There is no good reason to just 3x pre-flop in these games (meaning games with this big of a rake) unless your opponents give you a specific one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Malbrack

I don't like playing suited connectors against villains like this. On the majority of flops 87s is just 8-high, which is terrible if you're playing against an opponent who is unlikely to fold. And even if you flop a flush draw, you might be drawing to the second best hand since this type of villain gets a 43% vpip by playing hands like Kxs and Qxs.

As for cbetting all your draws, what is your plan on the turn when you miss?

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On a majority of flops, AK is just A-high.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spoonitnow

On a majority of flops, AK is just A-high.

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True, but AK is at least ahead of unimproved Ax, Kx, Qx, Jx, etc. (and there should be plenty of these type of hands in a 43% vpip player's range). Plus AK always flops either top pair+ or two overcards. 87s often doesn't even have one overcard.

I do like Savy's point about a cbet on the flop being a ticket to see the river against passive players like this. That makes betting draws a lot better (since you can often see two cards for one price). So, yeah, I would cbet 87s if it flopped a draw. But most of the time it will miss the flop all together. At that point I have to either give up (since even unimproved Qxs hands are crushing me) or try to bluff an opponent who doesn't want to fold, which leaves me to wonder why I would want to play 87s against this opponent (OOP no less) in the first place. At least ATs has high card value when it misses the flop.