Some Likely Spew 100NL

1. Villain is a SS reg, not got a big sample on him, but this seems to be his standard 3-bet sizing and he's 3-bet a few times so far from the blinds vs LP opens. I planned to call preflop for this prize and get monies in on good boards like this as I figure he doesn't 3 bet 33-88 too often and I should be in good shape here. Also I can get snapped off by stuff like AQ AK etc. Spew?

PokerStars - $1 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (BTN): 235.3 BB
SB: 44.1 BB (VPIP: 18.88, PFR: 15.02, 3Bet Preflop: 7.50, Hands: 240)
BB: 107.5 BB (VPIP: 26.85, PFR: 23.83, 3Bet Preflop: 14.16, Hands: 306)
UTG: 101.96 BB (VPIP: 23.78, PFR: 18.90, 3Bet Preflop: 5.88, Hands: 166)
MP: 169.92 BB (VPIP: 22.12, PFR: 16.83, 3Bet Preflop: 7.41, Hands: 210)
CO: 100 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has 2:heart: 2:club:

fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 2 BB, SB raises to 5 BB, fold, Hero calls 3 BB

Flop: (11 BB, 2 players) 5:spade: 9:diamond: 5:diamond:
SB bets 6.5 BB, Hero raises to 230.3 BB and is all-in


2. This might be totally awful as I don't even think he necessarily expects me to fold A high here and his range could include a bunch of strong stuff (even Qx) that goes for a c/r on the turn) I hate this call and I don't love my flop call either.

PokerStars - $1 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 213.51 BB (VPIP: 28.40, PFR: 25.93, 3Bet Preflop: 9.43, Hands: 165)
SB: 155.35 BB (VPIP: 27.45, PFR: 23.53, 3Bet Preflop: 13.04, Hands: 53)
Hero (BB): 100 BB
UTG: 110.68 BB (VPIP: 25.56, PFR: 16.67, 3Bet Preflop: 5.88, Hands: 90)
CO: 30.5 BB (VPIP: 38.10, PFR: 28.57, 3Bet Preflop: 7.69, Hands: 44)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has J:diamond: K:heart:

fold, fold, fold, SB raises to 3 BB, Hero calls 2 BB

Flop: (6 BB, 2 players) Q:diamond: Q:heart: 2:club:
SB bets 4 BB, Hero calls 4 BB

Turn: (14 BB, 2 players) Q:spade:
SB checks, Hero checks

River: (14 BB, 2 players) 4:club:
SB bets 10 BB, Hero calls 10 BB


3. I guess I'm wondering if preflop is just bad. 4-betting is pretty much my standard here but for some ingame reason I felt this guy was jamming a lot, probably because he's 3 bet me a couple of times before and is likely a dickwaving 100NLer.

PokerStars - $1 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 100 BB (VPIP: 16.22, PFR: 12.16, 3Bet Preflop: 8.33, Hands: 76)
Hero (SB): 134.05 BB
BB: 100 BB (VPIP: 26.92, PFR: 19.23, 3Bet Preflop: 17.39, Hands: 55)
UTG: 140.05 BB (VPIP: 31.03, PFR: 29.89, 3Bet Preflop: 11.43, Hands: 90)
MP: 194.54 BB (VPIP: 22.12, PFR: 16.83, 3Bet Preflop: 7.41, Hands: 210)
CO: 102.23 BB (VPIP: 15.38, PFR: 7.69, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 13)

Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has 7:club: A:club:

fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, BB raises to 8 BB, Hero calls 5 BB

Flop: (16 BB, 2 players) K:heart: 9:heart: J:club:
Hero checks, BB bets 9 BB, fold

BB wins 15.28 BB


4. Again I don't know if I like pre flop, can be dominated a bunch by both ranges here and can't feel super thrilled about felting TP vs the fish post flop. Think I prefer folding pre. Anyone call turn and if so what's the plan for river?

PokerStars - $1 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BB: 219.86 BB (VPIP: 28.40, PFR: 25.93, 3Bet Preflop: 9.43, Hands: 165)
UTG: 107.76 BB (VPIP: 12.24, PFR: 8.16, 3Bet Preflop: 4.35, Hands: 49)
Hero (MP): 149.06 BB
CO: 44.92 BB (VPIP: 28.57, PFR: 20.00, 3Bet Preflop: 7.69, Hands: 35)
BTN: 40 BB (VPIP: 14.55, PFR: 11.11, 3Bet Preflop: 4.76, Hands: 59)
SB: 100 BB (VPIP: 26.85, PFR: 23.83, 3Bet Preflop: 14.16, Hands: 306)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has J:club: Q:club:

fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, fold, BTN calls 3 BB, SB raises to 11.5 BB, fold, Hero calls 8.5 BB, fold

Flop: (27 BB, 2 players) J:spade: 9:heart: 5:heart:
SB bets 10.5 BB, Hero calls 10.5 BB

Turn: (48 BB, 2 players) A:club:
SB bets 18.5 BB, fold

SB wins 45.84 BB

1. I'd probaby just jam or fold pre. Not much good can come from flatting 22. As played, IF I felt like getting all-in, I would raise to like 14bb and hope he jams with QJ/KQ/JT type nonsense, rather than shoving and narrowing his range to only pairs. This goes for my entire value range here.

2. I can't see what you're beating here at all. This is the worst spot to bluff ever for villain.

3. Meh probably 4b/fold pre or just fold to 3b.

4. Seems ok. I'd often fold pre, MP vs SB, he prob doesn't have such a wide range.

Yeah good point about H1, no idea why I didn't consider raising smaller to induce. Agree H2 is just awful. Thanks for the response.

hand 1 i'd fold pre. i'm going to be forced to fold my equity on way too many flops and rarely get much money in the pot when i do have a hand i dont wanna fold. for me fold > jam > call in a vacuum.

honestly i think we are good close to 0% in hand 2. villain cant expect us to fold anything we peeled the flop with.

i'd 4b or fold pre in H3 but i can see it being a profitable flat for a more skilled player. and the 4b profitability obviously depends on you guys' history and image and gameflow. given your perception that villain will stick it in rather liberally, i'd just fold this one.

hand 4 i'd say pre is close. i'd rather the BU have 100bb's to call. postflop i'd play the same.

most of these are spots where image gameflow are quite relevant. the above would be my default strategies, but they might not work for your playing style though, or if table conditions/history dictate the timing is wrong to open yourself up to exploitation by 3/4betting a bluffy range.

Hand 1:

I wouldn't be so certain he wouldn't have 33-88 here. SSers will 3b/call with pairs quite a bit in resteal spots to protect their wide 3b/folding range.

Hand 2:

Flop call is standard if you don't feel like you can 3b pre for value. You should be calling a wide range on this flop because people always cbet this board with their air and your hand is much closer to the top of your range than it is to the bottom of it. Once you get to the river, though, I'd say you're much closer to the bottom of your range.

Hand 3:

Calling because you're afraid you'll get jammed on if you 4b bluff is terrible reasoning. The reason you're tempted to turn it into a 4b bluff in the first place is because you can't call it profitably, and the fact that he 5b jams does nothing whatsoever to change the negative profitability of calling. If you feel you're gonna be jammed on light, you adjust by replacing all your 4b/folds with hands you can 4b/call with (eg: 22+, which ties back into why I wouldn't assume that SSers aren't restealing with 22+). If you can keep your 4b range just as wide, then you don't need to widen your 3b calling range in order to exploit. The only reason to widen your 3b calling range is because of reads on how often they 3b/with what hands/how they play in those pots.

Hand 4:

Don't at all mind calling the squeeze pre against a 14% 3b'or when almost all of BU's range is folding behind. But this made me look at my continuing range for this spot, and even if I fold KQo/AJo (unlikely to against someone squeezing this wide), my fold% is still only 45%. Not sure if this is bad or not, but hey, he's squeezing a ton over a sizable sample and we have position.

As played, I'm not inclined to fold the turn. We raise the flop with AJ or better, so other than 10 or so combos of Axs that we might call the flop with (if we even made it that far), we might have KJs (if that didn't raise the flop) and then our hand. I'm not sure if we call the flop with TT or JTs, but I think we're plenty close enough to the top of our range to call here. And balance aside, I don't think his weaker hands are going to defer to check/anything when this card runs off because his weaker hands are mostly hands that flopped well (given he cbet a nasty board), and now the perceived barreling card just hit. I also think players check their weak aces here a lot figuring they get marginal hands to fold too often and miss out on bluffs from floats.

1. spew
2. spew without a dynamic to explain this
3. 4b or fold
4. fold pre otherwise fine

Guys, really thrilled this forum is still so alive. I guess all it takes is for some hands to be posted and some old faces crawl out of the woodwork. I'm grinding full time again now (or at least will be very soon) so it's good to still have this place.

I agree with most of the feedback, just a few comments.

@Surviva: H3: Of course an unprofitable 4-bet doesn't affect the equity of calling. I think my thought process was that calling might be marginally +EV, 4-betting is usually more +EV here nut not ion this specific game flow point and so flatting is best in this situation. I might well be overestimating how well I can play OOP here and my hand is pretty bleh, flopping me some awkward stuff and having little implied odds with its gin flops vs such a wide 3-bet range. So yeah I like folding.

H4: What's your river plan vs a jam? I'd be tempted to just call off if we called turn as I think a portion of his Ax doesn't go for three streets here. Also, our range is pretty damn weak when we get tro the river on this run out. I disagree though that we're raising AJ QQ+ etc on the flop, especially when we have a heart.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Carroters

Guys, really thrilled this forum is still so alive. I guess all it takes is for some hands to be posted and some old faces crawl out of the woodwork.

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Would be cool if people like Sauce or Nutsinho posted again. Would love to hear their viewpoints on the current topics we're discussing.

Even so FTR is mostly undiluted by ego stroking 2+2 BE regs and so you don't have to wade through 80 posts of dick waving, mindless BS before you hit decent discussion. Let's keep this shit going and build comunitees.

If it wasn't for this place I'd never have become a winning small stakes guy with an apatite for more and all that shit.

cool thread. Carroters, I've always appreciated your input around here as well and your threads are great. Great posts, especially from Surviva.

my thoughts:
1. Jamming pre seems better than flatting, I don't really hate this tbh.

2. I don't like hand 2 at all, I think we should bet the turn and raising river if we think he can fold his AJ-type hands seems way better than calling but mostly I think just fold the river.

3. 4-betting seems standard here, I'd rather flat with suited broadways, ATs, and occasional monsters if he's 3-betting this much.

4. Never folding QJs in such an obvious squeeze spot. Probably call turn and calling non-heart rivers.

This thread seemed like a lot of work, but since I disagree with about everyone, I'll play. Nice to see no results posted, keep that shit out.

1. I think flatting pre for just $3 more is fine. Jamming the flop against this nit is a ridiculous play. Also the fact that you want him to call with AK makes me think you haven't done your homework.

2. Absolutely fold flop. It's not standard surviva! We can't credibly rep anything on this board, so we are bluffcatching in a massive rio spot against a competent player.

3. Folding to the 3bet is absurd, calling is fine. I'd lead or c/r this flop though, we didn't flat pre to flop the nuts. At least we can rep the dog's bollocs on this board.

4. I'd 4bet/fold pre. As played I'd raise flop. Call or jam turn unless he's got low cbet% or (relatively) low sqz% somehow.

flop jam hand 1 so bad. agree with p4s notes on the entire hand.
sidenote: p4s im agreeing with you a lot these days, I feel like our games have merged together somewhat)

1. 4-bet pre imo, not really all that close. 22 is garbage postflop with these stacks. Postflop as played looks fine with these stacks, I suppose.

2. Re: the flop call, I'm generally not a fan of adding hands like this to an already weak calling range. Just raise the flop or fold imo.

Turn is a clear bet, this is one of the weakest absolute strength hands in your flop calling range, and there's plenty of strength (qx 77-88 etc) for you to balance out with a bluff or two like this. KJ is also the nut semibluff so you'll get bailed out with some nice value on the K/J river.

River is probably pure spew, I just don't see a lot of bet check bet bluffs in these situations.

3. I'd 4-bet this hand approximately never, its one of the best hands for calling a reraise bvb, and plays terribly in 4-bet pots. 100% call. Postflop looks fine.

4. Never fold this pre. On such a wet flop I think I would just raise to stack off. You got no turns to look forward to and he'll jam plenty of draws and worse hands such as JT As9s TT AK.

Turn as played I'd call and fold most rivers.



*I think you (or perhaps I) have some preflop misconception as I disagreed with nearly every preflop point you made in your thoughts about the hand.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Renton

1. 4-bet pre imo, not really all that close. 22 is garbage postflop with these stacks. Postflop as played looks fine with these stacks, I suppose.

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Why do you want to 4-bet this and are you calling a shove? It's a pretty bad choice for a 4-bet bluff and imo too weak to stack off with against this nit. Calling only $3 more hoping he checks down AK or stacks off when we hit a set seems better than folding imo.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pocketfours

Why do you want to 4-bet this and are you calling a shove? It's a pretty bad choice for a 4-bet bluff and imo too weak to stack off with against this nit. Calling only $3 more hoping he checks down AK or stacks off when we hit a set seems better than folding imo.

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I didn't do any actual math to come to that, but it just seems like vs typical 40bber sb-button strategy we should be 4bet jamming almost any pair. If he's 3-bet getting in every pair also though, I suppose we can fold the weakest pps. I think 55-66 would be a fairly trivial shove vs most 40bbers. Calling is maybe ok given he made it so small (which discourages us 4-betting to begin with).

0 = 8x - 42(1-x)(1-e) + (47-3)(1-x)(e)

If e = 35% then he needs to fold nearly 60% of the time which is a tall order. But when you consider he's 3-betting probably his entire vpip range from the sb vs a min-opening button, its probable that he's starting with well over 15% of hands, and the farther past 10% he's playing the more it skews 22's equity towards being a flip when called or getting a fold to our push.


My final analysis would be that 44.1 is ever-so-slightly too deep to 4-bet this, and calling is extremely marginal even for the odds.