TT profitable stack off here?

CO seems to be a rampant 3bettor: 23/18/16.1 - 156 hands

Have history with SB, basically he's trying to get into every pot with me, won 100+ bb's off him this session and won some off him yesterday, his stats are: 33/21/3.6 - 509 hands.

Once he flats the 3bet in the SB I know he's folding to a 4bet like 100% unless it's ridiculously small. And the CO has been 3betting a lot IP this was the 4th time or so this session vs my opens. Can I 4bet call here profitably? What do you guys think?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com

CO ($5.12)
Button ($5.38)
SB ($10.31)
BB ($12.37)
UTG ($5.85)
Hero (MP) ($12.19)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ilies/club.gif, 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...es/diamond.gif
1 fold, Hero raises to $0.20, CO raises to $0.60, 1 fold, SB calls $0.58, 1 fold, Hero raises to $2.50, CO raises to $5.12 (All-In), 1 fold, Hero calls $2.62

Flop: ($10.89) 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ilies/club.gif, 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...es/diamond.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ilies/club.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: ($10.89) Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/spade.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($10.89) 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/heart.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $10.89 | Rake: $0.45

Well you certainly can't b/f when CO has so little behind.

You can just fold to the 3bet, but if you feel like he's been running you over then you may want to 4bet him, the problem is that you might as well have 72o as TT if you're 4bet bluffing, but because of how little he has behind you can't be bluffing (ie. planning to fold to a shove) so you must be value betting, but just because he 3bets a lot doesn't mean he's loose to 4bets or shoves light, so when he shoves you're probably always behind or at best flipping, but against [QQ+, AK] you have 36% equity so you've got to call.

Interested to hear what others think. I probably play it the same.

That 4bet looks enormous to me, 50bb. You basically decide to go allin for 100bb with TT. This guy may 3bet a fair bit but does he also shove his stack in with trash? You're either flipping or behind here.

Oh yeah, I thought this was 10NL, I see now - CO is actually 100bb deep, and the 3bet sizing is standard. I fold.

If CO is an absolute spazz it's fine. Otherwise you're just isolating yourself against the strongest part of his range. I would usually flat a 3bet oop with TT-QQ and AK and play some postflop. On the plus side you have balanced your '4bet huge' range.

A normal 4bet size would be 2.5x or about $1.50 btw.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by abelardx

I would just flat the 3bet, not just looking to set mine but you want to keep his suited connector crap in his range.

---

I don't like flatting here unless we have odds to mine. What do we do when he 2-barrels on this runout?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BorisTheSpider

I don't like flatting here unless we have odds to mine. What do we do when he 2-barrels on this runout?

---

I expect villain to play very fit or fold in a 3bet pot. If he double barrels I'd fold the turn. Normally here I would flat pre, and c/c a half pot cbet or c/f to a pot sized cbet, that kind of thing. It's not cast in stone. But preflop I really think flatting is by far the best play with TT. Yes being oop sucks but it's not the only consideration. Our hand is way too strong to fold to the 3bet and too weak to 4bet. So I'd call. We can play a hand oop occasionally.

I'm curious the logic for 4betting. If the CO 3bets with something like a 20% range (you list his 3bet at 16, but since he's in late position, it's probably a little higher than that number) but only calls or shoves hero's 4bet with JJ+, AKo, AQs+ (3.3%), then CO is folding to a 4bet more than 80% of the time. At that point you can 4bet bluff with any two cards. On the other hand, if CO calls or shoves with 40% of the hands he 3bet with to avoid being exploited, then he's calling/shoving with an 8% overall range. TT has 53% equity against an 8% range like { 66+,AJs+,KQs,AQo+,KQo }.

Edit: I guess my point is that if you're 4bet bluffing (in the sense of hoping for folds to make a profit), why use TT and not something weaker? If you're 4betting for value, it seems a little thin even against about as wide as CO would ever call/shove.

Since CO is such a spazz, my decision is heavily dependent on SB. If SB is a whale/fish, then I don't mind this. Otherwise you're dead here too often.

That being said, your 4b sizing is crazy huge. You might as well just jam then.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by abelardx

Our hand is way too strong to fold to the 3bet and too weak to 4bet. So I'd call. We can play a hand oop occasionally.

---

If CO is loose enough that we can profitably call OOP with TT here, he's also loose enough that we can proftably 4bet bluff with it pre.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BorisTheSpider

If CO is loose enough that we can profitably call OOP with TT here, he's also loose enough that we can proftably 4bet bluff with it pre.

---

Do you mean 4b/fold? We can do that with any two cards.

It's wrong to look at a 4-bet line here with TT as strictly a bluff or value. What we're doing is taking advantage of dead money + fold equity + reasonable equity when he jams. It's hard to be "crushed" vs his 3 bet jam range when it contains 16 combos of AK and sometimes even has 99 88 AQ if he's really spewy preflop. I think with your read that SB is cold calling really wide here, this is absolutely fine, except for the fact that your sizing is ridiculous. Give them room to jam worse pairs and at least some illusion of fold equity.

4-bet folding TT here is one of the most absurd things I've ever heard.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Carroters

It's wrong to look at a 4-bet line here with TT as strictly a bluff or value. What we're doing is taking advantage of dead money + fold equity + reasonable equity when he jams. It's hard to be "crushed" vs his 3 bet jam range when it contains 16 combos of AK and sometimes even has 99 88 AQ if he's really spewy preflop. I think with your read that SB is cold calling really wide here, this is absolutely fine, except for the fact that your sizing is ridiculous. Give them room to jam worse pairs and at least some illusion of fold equity.

---

@ bold - that was exactly my thinking, there was 29bb dead money it there. It wasn't supposed to be bluff or pure value, I was just trying to take advantage of what looked like a +EV spot, with the amount of fold equity and dead money out there and my equity if I get jammed on. I dunno about sizing, especially in this spot since it's not one that comes up very often with the dynamic and all. I was trying to take advantage of some immediate value like the whole longball vs shortball side of things you were talking about. Obviously I'm not fist pumping trying to get it in for fat value, nor am I looking to be getting it in vs his 5bet range long term, it just looked like a profitable spot.

Believe everyone that says yr sizing is atrocious.

This 4b sizing is great if we think the guy who's trying to see flops with us is gonna call all his pairs, and seeing as he called a 12bb 3bet with a hand that can't stand any more action with pfr still to act, I think this is a reasonable assumption. I don't hate this sizing, but if I make it this big there's a reason for it, rather than this being standard 4bet sizing.

Don't open for 4bb's when villain to your left is 3b'ing 16%, christ! Opening for as small as other factors allow (no larger than 3bbs) is one option. Moving tables is another.

As played, SB's flat really helps you out because CO is gonna play straight forward postflop with him in the pot. You are doing extremely well against both SB and CO, you have both relative and absolute position on the fish, and you're really not sure how your hand fairs once you 4b, so I MUCH prefer flatting, assuming we don't think that we're gonna be ass raped by CO postflop. I mean, getting it in is maybe better for balance because you should be 4b bluffing a fair amount in this spot, but I think it's a rare enough spot against a distinctive enough villain for you to keep track of your image and just play in-a-vacuum for every individual scenario.

If you do 4b, for the love of fuck raise like a million times smaller. Okay, slight exaggeration but fuck, you have to go an amount that makes it look like it's possible for you to fold to a shove (though you obviously won't be with this specific hand). Maybe like $1.42.

Post-grunch, I see everyone's jumping on your sizing. Sorry to pile on.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by surviva316

If you do 4b, for the love of fuck raise like a million times smaller. Okay, slight exaggeration but fuck, you have to go an amount that makes it look like it's possible for you to fold to a shove (though you obviously won't be with this specific hand). Maybe like $1.42.

---

So you like to put 100bb in the middle calling a 5-bet allin with TT? You're a 40% dog to 99+, AK. I wouldn't be too happy with that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jackvance

So you like to put 100bb in the middle calling a 5-bet allin with TT? You're a 40% dog to 99+, AK. I wouldn't be too happy with that.

---

How much equity you have when it goes 4/bet-shove-call is only a part of the EV of 4-bet/calling. You get back 40% of a total pot of 200bb + the dead money which isn't too much of a loss. Then there are all the times they both fold and you win loads of money. It's easily going to be +EV.