[10NL] T8o...Does villain have worse?

Villain complete unknown, 6 hands.

PokerStars - $0.10 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: $10.00
SB: $22.17
BB: $11.83
UTG: $22.36
Hero (CO): $10.15

SB posts SB $0.05, BB posts BB $0.10

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.15) Hero has T:diamond: 8:heart:

fold, Hero raises to $0.30, fold, fold, BB calls $0.20

Flop: ($0.65, 2 players) 8:spade: T:spade: 3:spade:
BB bets $0.60, Hero calls $0.60

Turn: ($1.85, 2 players) 3:club:
BB bets $1.80, Hero calls $1.80

River: ($5.45, 2 players) 4:heart:
BB bets $5.20, Hero ???

Am I ever good here? 3 barrels OOP...

What are thoughts on a flop raise?

I like a big flop raise trying to get it in. The turn counterfeits your two pair vs an overpair but you're still beating Tx. tbh I would call him down. I think he has enough Tx to make it at least breakeven. This would be another good hand to do the math on.

edit: I misread the hand. Please disregard everything I said here.

Ugh. I probably weaktight-fold the river, but I expect it's bad - this is just like that AK hand I posted, where Ong wanted to station it, and I'm coming around to feeling it might be best just to hold your nose and click the call button. I think you'll see a lot of AA/KK/QQ as well as some busted flushes. Sets too for sure, and flopped flushes, but I think especially if you look at the river in isolation as a spot where you only have to be good a third of the time, it seems like a call.

EDIT: I just realised you're counterfeit by the 3s on board, it probably makes quite a difference.

Oh I misread the hand. I didn't see it was a monotone flop. I read in Easy Game that people don't often make big bluffs or multi-street bluffs on flush boards. In any case there's now a bunch more hands beating us. I like folding the turn now and I wouldn't raise the flop. That's probably really spewy.

Hmm we only really bet AsX. His sizing doesn't feel like that to me though. I'd fold river.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by griffey24

Hmm we only really bet AsX. His sizing doesn't feel like that to me though. I'd fold river.

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Are you reading his PSBs as strength??

I thought it was "scared betting", didn't feel like he was value betting me. If he flopped a flush why would he just lead straight out with it? Unless it was really weak like 65ss/76ss and he doesn't want to see another spade, I guess that would make sense.

Why are we stealing T8o vs a "complete unknown"?

I'm openfolding pre.

Flop I guess I call this, but his donk sizing looks like a small flush or set to me.

Turn he pots it again after the board pairs. This is better than Tx and we should fold now.

River is also a fold for the same reason as turn.

My opinion. I definitely throw this away pre though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

Why are we stealing T8o vs a "complete unknown"?

I'm openfolding pre.

Flop I guess I call this, but his donk sizing looks like a small flush or set to me.

Turn he pots it again after the board pairs. This is better than Tx and we should fold now.

River is also a fold for the same reason as turn.

My opinion. I definitely throw this away pre though.

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I'm pretty loose in LP, right from the start. If people play back, I slow down. If not, I widen my stealing range further.

'im fine with the steal if the BU is tightish. i'm thinking these leads are more often a strong but vulnerable hand (small-mid flush) or the nuts looking for fat value way more than a triple PSB with the As. as such i think we definitely shouldnt get to showdown vs this line, i just cant decide if i fold turn or river. i'm thinking turn because we very rarely improve and it seems like we're going to face another barrel a lot (which we probably fold to 95% of the time)

edit: i guess i'm saying don't call turn unless you wanna call river unimproved, because we're likely going to have to do just that a high % of the time.

Quote:

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'im fine with the steal if the BU is tightish.

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Me too, but there's no indication of this. I also want to know that bb folds enough. Based on the information we have, this is a pretty easy snapfold pre for me.

Yah low flush could def play like this, not wanting another spade to peel out.

Yeah sorry, BU was 13/8/0 (3bet) over 110 hands, I would never open here if BU was anything other than tight and I had no reads.

Also, I am fairly confident in my ability post-flop, especially when I'm IP. So I will put pressure on the blinds from the get-go.

Thanks rpm, I thought about that and I prob should have folded turn. I just thought he might have hands like Asxx, AsTx etc and he may not fire the river. After responses in the thread, I think a low flush seems most likely and I should have folded turn.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cobra_1878

Are you reading his PSBs as strength??

I thought it was "scared betting", didn't feel like he was value betting me. If he flopped a flush why would he just lead straight out with it? Unless it was really weak like 65ss/76ss and he doesn't want to see another spade, I guess that would make sense.

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you really need to reevaluate that line of thinking. some hands from my challenge last night.

Poker Stars, $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

MP2: $2.18 (43.6 bb)
MP3: $2.88 (57.6 bb)
CO: $5 (100 bb)
Hero (BTN): $17.53 (350.6 bb)
SB: $5.77 (115.4 bb)
BB: $10.45 (209 bb)
UTG+1: $12.41 (248.2 bb)
UTG+2: $0.85 (17 bb)
MP1: $1.34 (26.8 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with Ahttp://pokertools.holdemmanager.com/...cons/club4.gif Khttp://pokertools.holdemmanager.com/...ons/spade4.gif
3 folds, MP2 raises to $0.15, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.50, SB folds, BB calls $0.45, MP2 folds

Flop: ($1.17) 4http://pokertools.holdemmanager.com/...s/diamond4.gif 3http://pokertools.holdemmanager.com/...ons/heart4.gif Ahttp://pokertools.holdemmanager.com/...ons/heart4.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.84, BB calls $0.84

Turn: ($2.85) 3http://pokertools.holdemmanager.com/...ons/spade4.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $2.75, BB calls $2.75

River: ($8.35) 6http://pokertools.holdemmanager.com/...s/diamond4.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $6.50, BB calls $6.36 and is all-in

Results: $21.07 pot ($0.87 rake)
Final Board: 4http://pokertools.holdemmanager.com/...s/diamond4.gif 3http://pokertools.holdemmanager.com/...ons/heart4.gif Ahttp://pokertools.holdemmanager.com/...ons/heart4.gif 3http://pokertools.holdemmanager.com/...ons/spade4.gif 6http://pokertools.holdemmanager.com/...s/diamond4.gif
Hero showed Ahttp://pokertools.holdemmanager.com/...cons/club4.gif Khttp://pokertools.holdemmanager.com/...ons/spade4.gif and won $20.20 ($9.75 net)
BB mucked Qhttp://pokertools.holdemmanager.com/...ons/spade4.gif Ahttp://pokertools.holdemmanager.com/...ons/spade4.gif and lost (-$10.45 net)

-------------------------------------------------------------
Poker Stars, $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 8 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

MP1: $1.60 (32 bb)
MP2: $5.32 (106.4 bb)
MP3: $4.98 (99.6 bb)
CO: $4.90 (98 bb)
BTN: $5.81 (116.2 bb)
SB: $2 (40 bb)
BB: $7.81 (156.2 bb)
Hero (UTG+2): $16.62 (332.4 bb)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with 8http://pokertools.holdemmanager.com/...ons/spade4.gif 8http://pokertools.holdemmanager.com/...s/diamond4.gif
Hero raises to $0.15, MP1 calls $0.15, 5 folds, BB calls $0.10

Flop: ($0.47) 2http://pokertools.holdemmanager.com/...cons/club4.gif 9http://pokertools.holdemmanager.com/...s/diamond4.gif Khttp://pokertools.holdemmanager.com/...cons/club4.gif (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.33, MP1 folds, BB calls $0.33

Turn: ($1.13) 8http://pokertools.holdemmanager.com/...ons/heart4.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $1.55, BB calls $1.55

River: ($4.23) Khttp://pokertools.holdemmanager.com/...ons/heart4.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $8.45, BB calls $5.78

Results: $15.79 pot ($0.66 rake)
Final Board: 2http://pokertools.holdemmanager.com/...cons/club4.gif 9http://pokertools.holdemmanager.com/...s/diamond4.gif Khttp://pokertools.holdemmanager.com/...cons/club4.gif 8http://pokertools.holdemmanager.com/...ons/heart4.gif Khttp://pokertools.holdemmanager.com/...ons/heart4.gif
BB showed Khttp://pokertools.holdemmanager.com/...s/diamond4.gif Thttp://pokertools.holdemmanager.com/...ons/spade4.gif and lost (-$7.81 net)
Hero showed 8http://pokertools.holdemmanager.com/...ons/spade4.gif 8http://pokertools.holdemmanager.com/...s/diamond4.gif and won $15.13 ($7.32 net)

--------------------------------------------------
Poker Stars, $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

UTG+1: $12.59 (251.8 bb)
UTG+2: $5.42 (108.4 bb)
MP1: $5.15 (103 bb)
MP2: $3.54 (70.8 bb)
MP3: $5.07 (101.4 bb)
CO: $5.04 (100.8 bb)
BTN: $1.93 (38.6 bb)
SB: $5.58 (111.6 bb)
Hero (BB): $23.35 (467 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7http://pokertools.holdemmanager.com/...ons/spade4.gif Thttp://pokertools.holdemmanager.com/...ons/spade4.gif
7 folds, SB raises to $0.10, Hero calls $0.05

Flop: ($0.20) 9http://pokertools.holdemmanager.com/...cons/club4.gif 8http://pokertools.holdemmanager.com/...ons/heart4.gif 6http://pokertools.holdemmanager.com/...ons/spade4.gif (2 players)
SB bets $0.19, Hero raises to $0.50, SB calls $0.31

Turn: ($1.20) 5http://pokertools.holdemmanager.com/...ons/heart4.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $1.40, SB raises to $4.98 and is all-in, Hero calls $3.58

River: ($11.16) Qhttp://pokertools.holdemmanager.com/...ons/heart4.gif (2 players, 1 is all-in)

Results: $11.16 pot ($0.46 rake)
Final Board: 9http://pokertools.holdemmanager.com/...cons/club4.gif 8http://pokertools.holdemmanager.com/...ons/heart4.gif 6http://pokertools.holdemmanager.com/...ons/spade4.gif 5http://pokertools.holdemmanager.com/...ons/heart4.gif Qhttp://pokertools.holdemmanager.com/...ons/heart4.gif
SB showed 7http://pokertools.holdemmanager.com/...ons/heart4.gif 7http://pokertools.holdemmanager.com/...cons/club4.gif and lost (-$5.58 net)
Hero showed 7http://pokertools.holdemmanager.com/...ons/spade4.gif Thttp://pokertools.holdemmanager.com/...ons/spade4.gif and won $10.70 ($5.12 net)


sometimes its just a player getting really really fat value .

Oh right, so the "complete unknown" on the bb is keith value towning cobra to hell?

Not one of those hands is similar to the hand I posted.

My hand was villain firing 3 barrels, OOP, all PSBs.

You're IP in all of your hands and you're also the aggressor.

the point i'm making is that with 3 streets of pot sized bets, theres pretty much a reason much closer to fat value than scared bets as the reason behind the bet sizing. Last hand in particular i wasn't the preflop aggressor, but i got very aggressive when i hit a monster.

Quote:

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Not one of those hands is similar to the hand I posted.

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Yeah it is, you're missing the point. What is Keith doing when he has a monster? Value value value. That's what this guy is doing here. He has a small flush or a set turned boat and is getting fat value vs overpairs and nut flush draws. If he has worse than a set on flop I will puke I'll be in so much shock. I call flop because maybe he can bluff at pot size once and if I get lucky I have two streets to get value vs his monster.

My comment above was meant to be tongue in cheek, suggesting this guy is value towning you to hell.

shouldn't we be raising the flop bet most of the time?
I'm raising flop and shutting down after that...