AA $10NL whats your line?

Not posted in a loooooong time. back trying my hand at cash. Just wondering what your line is here on the river? player was quite tight.

thanks in advance.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (9 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://flopturnriver.com/

UTG+1 ($11.37)
MP1 ($14.07)
MP2 ($10.43)
MP3 ($3.17)
CO ($12.53)
Button ($10.51)
SB ($9.20)
Hero (BB) ($16.49)
UTG ($10.54)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A:spade:, A:heart:
UTG raises to $0.30, 7 folds, Hero raises to $0.95, UTG calls $0.65

Flop: ($1.95) 4:diamond:, 5:heart:, 5:club: (2 players)
Hero bets $0.93, UTG calls $0.93

Turn: ($3.81) K:spade: (2 players)
Hero bets $1.90, UTG calls $1.90

River: ($7.61) 3:heart: (2 players)
Hero ??

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Originally Posted by Random_Hero

player was quite tight.

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Can you elaborate, please.

Like... how many hands have you played with this villain?
Is he positionally aware?
Have you seen him play a strong hand? What was his line?
What range would you guess for him OTR?
What will he call with if you shove? (just guess)
What will he call with if you min-bet? (guess again)

... and everything else you can think of to add that you ever observed about him or care to guess about as pertains to poker.

The more information you have on Villain, the less absolute crap the advice you receive will be.

Apologies, he hadn't been at the table too long, maybe 20 hands or so. His vpip was 6, pfr was 6 from what I can remember. Didnt have too much to go on apart from that.

Dream flop in the sense that he probably only calls 3bets pre at nit ring when UTG with JJ-QQ (12 combos), AK (8 combos on flop) and maybe KK, but we can likely discount that.

Given that range, your sizing should be unbalanced and much closer to pot on the flop and turn. We're unlikely to get 3 streets here against this guy so I prefer to get more in on flop and turn.

I think river as played is almost immaterial as you're not getting called. If villain is bad then maybe you'll get called for $2.50, but no bigger.

His turn call is somewhat alarming. If he beats AK, he beats AA.

I don't think he has like JJ-QQ only, I think he can have any pair given stacks, especially if hero has a nitty 3bet range. He's getting close to 20:1 implied odds. I think he calls all his pairs on flop, but the turn is a disaster for him with everything except 5x and 44. I suppose AK could call pre and float flop, but really that's all I can see us beating now, and it's optimistic.

I think I'd check the turn, leaving a nice easy call on river. I just don't see what he can call that we beat after this turn.

As played, I hate it but I'm probably going to c/c.

Probably 3b a bit bigger pre.

As played, you have to triple off here and yah sometimes you'll run into KKK. Not much you can do about that though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

As played, I hate it but I'm probably going to c/c.

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UTG has committed 36% of his stack. I'd probably check/call on the river as well.

Thanks for the replies. I'm used to playing sit and go's and have just started playing cash. My post flop play needs MAJOR work so bare with me if the thinking below is poor. I also understand my bet sizing needs work.

after he calls the reraise I put him on 88-KK, AK, AQ.

On the flop after he calls the range probably is still the same. Couldn't see him calling a reraise with 44 and not any 5's in his range. So I press on for value.

Turn is a King, and only thing that scares me is KK but if he has that then so be it. I still think I have to bet here and in most cases I'm still ahead.

Would I be correct in thinking like this?

The thing with your assigned range to villain is that this is probably 100% of his opening range UTG at nit ring (and that's if he's even that wide). Maybe he does make a mistake and call that wide when hero probably only has kk+ here, on the basis that you'll stack off if he flops a set.

As played, check calling is disastrous imo. We lose to three combos at most and beat a ton that may call, so we can comfortably value bet here. I think the only question is the sizing, as I'd expect nearly everything to fold va a jam and not bet when checked to.

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As played, check calling is disastrous imo. We lose to three combos at most and beat a ton that may call, so we can comfortably value bet here. I think the only question is the sizing, as I'd expect nearly everything to fold va a jam and not bet when checked to.

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I don't think we get any more value from anything that loses to AK. I kind of want to c/f river because I really hate his turn call. This is why I don't really like betting turn. When we check turn, we rep JJ/QQ and he might try to push us off it. I feel much more comfortable calling down than I do trying to extract value. There's no reason for us to think he's calling JJ or whatever, certainly on the river.

What calls the turn and then calls another bet on river? If this guy is a fish then for sure I'm triple barrelling, not folding ever, but against a nit I think we're in bad shape when he calls the turn.

I don't really get you guys wanting to c/c here. C/C is the worst choice imo.

I think it should be shove or c/f > c/c.

What worse hands on this particular board are we hoping he shoves that don't call a shove?

There might also be some merit to betting small here ($2.5-$3), with intention of making a sick pot odds b/f.

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I think it should be shove or c/f > c/c.

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Yeah I agree, in theory. I'm just being realistic about actually being able to fold this at river. I want to c/f, but I'd probably end up calling his bet because aces.

Quote:

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What worse hands on this particular board are we hoping he shoves that don't call a shove?

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I guess I'm hoping that slowing down at turn has him thinking our overpair just became an underpair, that we're folding to pressure. If he has say TT, he might think we're folding QQ if he gets the money in. I certainly feel this is more likely than him calling worse at river.

A small bet has merit, but again our discipline is being put to the test. I suppose it's easier to b/f than c/f though.

I mean I think the fact that this hand was posted at all means the results are heavily skewed towards hero running into KKK here.

Villain might 4b KK some % of time pre. Villain is just as likely to flat AK pre and flat flop than always be flatting KK pre imo.

So if villain does ever 4b KK here, ten we're down to maybe 22 possible KK combos. Vill might also have AK combos. Sure we block some, but we still have 6 left and those are more likely to call pre and might float flop. If he floats 1/3rd of time then he also has 2 combos of AK here.

If we're trying to nit around the fear of 2 combos we're mega over-thinking imo. If stacking off hurts us so bad to be afraid of running AA into KK here then we're playing too high imo.

Shove or bet $2.85. Maybe lose. Re-load -> next hand.

I dunno why you guys are intent that pre this is 88 at worst. Some people will open all pairs UTG at these stakes, and the call to 3b is probably just about ok considering implied odds vs an oop 3b vs UTG. If I opened 22 here (I might if table is folding a lot), I'd be calling the 3bet because post flop is ridiculously easy to play out, and I expect to get paid more often than not when I do hit. If I didn't intend to call a standard 3b, especially against the blinds, I wouldn't open it in the first place.

I know he's 6/6, but I assume this is only the end of his 2nd orbit if he's played ~20 hands. His nitty stats mean very little to us. I think his range is wider than people are giving credit for, at least pre flop. Had he played over 50 hands, well I'm much more inclined to think he's not opening small pairs UTG.

I'd fucking laugh if he had 67s, a hand noone expects him to r/c UTG and then chase to river. But honestly, I think this is 44/55/KK and some AK (once he calls turn). I want more than two orbits for me to be happy 44/55 isn't in his range.

That said, I really don't see where the value is coming from on the turn. I don't think he has AK often enough here, and he folds anything else we beat.

Thanks for all the replies I really appreciate it...

I bet again on the river as I honestly thought I was ahead here. He shoved over and I had to call 3 dollars to win 17 so I called and he showed 55 for quad 5's

I've just started playing cash and have a lot to learn but I don't think I done too much wrong in this hand...

Now you know he opens 55 utg, how will you adjust?

and calls a 3 bet with them also. I have to assign him a wider range in future. Probably plays all pairs like this I'd imagine and from any position.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Random_Hero

and calls a 3 bet with them also. I have to assign him a wider range in future. Probably plays all pairs like this I'd imagine and from any position.

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That sounds right. How will you adjust your pre and post flop strategy against him?

I'm not surprised he peeled with that. Given stack sizes and your 3b sizing, he's prob got good set hunting odds here (17x behind).

My standard 3b here would def be bigger pre - likely $1.10-$1.20 OOP.

That being said if he's calling low pairs you should probably start 3b his utg open much wider, as he'll have a hard time continuing on tons of flops. If you get the sense he's peeling pairs on flops then you can start barreling till you see him calling you down light.

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My standard 3b here would def be bigger pre - likely $1.10-$1.20 OOP.

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Unless we're actively trying to deny him pot odds to setmine, expecting him to call anyway, I'd be 3betting to hero's size. Going x4 seems like overkill, I'd expect too many folds, which obviously I don't want.

I think the key to this hand is checking turn. He can only call hands that beat AK now, considering our range is strong. At least when we check turn, we can reasonably expect him to call river with stuff like 99 or whatever, or he might try to push us off QQ etc.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

Going x4 seems like overkill, I'd expect too many folds, which obviously I don't want.

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The best outcome is that you bet more and he calls at the same rate, right?

You expect he calls too much, but until you see actual evidence he calls too much, it's worth exploring. Maybe he doesn't adjust. Maybe he adjusts poorly. The only way to know is to press him.

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Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

The best outcome is that you bet more and he calls at the same rate, right?

You expect he calls too much, but until you see actual evidence he calls too much, it's worth exploring. Maybe he doesn't adjust. Maybe he adjusts poorly. The only way to know is to press him.

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I'd expect him to fold where he doesn't have setmining odds, so I'd want him to call with setmining odds, and for me to have enough skill post flop to ensure it's not profitable for him with x17 or whatever he has.

But you're right, we don't know he folds, and this is the perfect opportunity to find out. At least if we raise more pre flop, when he calls we make enough pre flop to ensure we're not making a net loss from this hand.

I'm probably wrong to keep it small pre flop, considering he's UTG and therefore more likely to call that if he were in late position. But I still hate the bet on the turn.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The Bean Counter

That sounds right. How will you adjust your pre and post flop strategy against him?

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I can 3b him more as he has a loose opening range. I should make my 3b size bigger though so he's not getting odds for set mining.

Post flop is where I need to do a lot of work. How do you suggest I adjust post flop?

I'm really enjoying cash but am looking for some literature to help me. I've been reading the stickies and previous threads. Is there anything anyone can recommend...? Books, websites etc?

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Post flop is where I need to do a lot of work. How do you suggest I adjust post flop?

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I would be paying close attention to his post flop play, to see if he bluffs when he senses weakness, and to see if he's passive or aggressive with strong draws. I'd also want to know if he calls two or three streets with top pair, and if he'll float small pairs on non A/K flops.

Armed with this info, I feel we're much better positioned to exploit him post flop. Based on this hand alone, I don't feel like I can do anything to exploit him post flop except be more aggressive with missed AK than I might otherwise have been.

My advice is to always consider any expense of money as coming from your BR. If you are considering paying for a book or software or anything else, think of the cost in terms of BB's.

How many BB's is the cost?
Call it A.

How many BB/100 hands of improvement do you anticipate from this purchase?
Call it B.
(Note that this is your NEW winrate after you're a pro at the new skills minus the OLD winrate from before you made the purchase. Realistically, don't expect this to be over 1 to 3 bb/100.)

Take A and divide by B, and that's the number hands you expect to need to play to break even on the purchase. If you're playing 5NL, and you expect to increase your winrate by 1 bb/100, then a $50 purchase is 100,000 hands. In 100 hands, you'll make $0.05 more than before you mastered this new skill. Then after 100 times as many hands (10,000), you'll have earned $5 more than otherwise. Then, finally after 10 times as many hands again (100,000), you've recouped your investment and it's pure profit from there on.

This means that the higher you are in stakes, the more motivated you should be to invest money in getting better. Also, the higher volume you play, the more motivated you should be. If you're a casual player at the micros, the investment is almost always a -EV choice.


Very nearly 100% of the time, your most +EV option is to find 0 cost ways to study.

Posting hands here and on other poker forums is widely hailed to be a solid way to get free advice.
Using Equilab and just constantly playing with it and asking yourself questions about equity in various situations and then finding the answers is amazing for letting yourself do lazy homework that will actually stick with you as learning.
Trolling YouTube for poker videos which have a player you can relate to is OK, but can be pretty lame for retention of skills.
There's always the leak-finder ability of most poker-tracking softwares (only 0 cost if you've already purchased, though).

Thanks for that.

I already have hold em manager and I'll look into equilab.

I will continue to play and post hands in here and read other threads. I learned most of my sit and go game posting on here years ago.

Thanks again.

Posting hands, using equilabe, etc, is all excellent advice. I'd also recommend a short subscription to GrinderSchool. The videos made by Carroters can be downloaded and will give you enough to beat up 25nl as a minimum.

As you begin to progress, you can then look into purchasing Matt Janda's book. It's all about how to understand what a balanced range looks like, which then helps you to understand how you can exploit all of the unbalanced players online. I wouldn't buy this book too early in the process though.

Wow - this thread shows how advanced NL has become - I haven't played online since the DOJ took our game away. In a $10 game my standard play there would have been to shove river. I am super surprised that people are saying the players at a $10 game are now so good that you would rarely get value from worse hands there.

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Originally Posted by chardrian

Wow - this thread shows how advanced NL has become - I haven't played online since the DOJ took our game away. In a $10 game my standard play there would have been to shove river. I am super surprised that people are saying the players at a $10 game are now so good that you would rarely get value from worse hands there.

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There are plenty of players who will pay off, but they tend to stick out like a sore thumb, and a 6/6 after two orbits isn't really standing out for me. It might take a while to decide how nitty this guy is, but it doesn't usually take long to find out if someone is loose.

This hand for me is about recognising a value killer when we see it. Villain's calling range is ridiculously strong after this turn. All we can hope for is AK, and we have no idea if he even gets here with that.

I'd say that if we've been 3betting a lot in the last two orbits, that this guy thinks we're a bit wild, then for sure there's gonna be more value there. Assuming he considers us solid, then I don't see why he'd have anything in his range worse than AK after calling turn, whatever stakes we're playing.

I have played against plenty of nits who'd call me with qq or jj here. There are plenty of nits who are bad because since they play so few hands they have a really hard time folding when they actually get in a hand.
Also 20 hands is a super small sample size.

I think they're more likely to call QQ/JJ to a river bet after turn checks through. Facing a turn bet with river yet to come, in a 3bet pot vs the aggressor, I would be really surrprised to see a seemingly disciplined player call QQ/JJ. He's gonna hate the bet and he's going to expect a river shove. He might call if it's a half pot bet for showdown though.

I really don't expect to get two more streets from QQ/JJ after this turn, that's extremely optimistic imo. And I think we're much more likely to get value from those at river than turn.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

I think they're more likely to call QQ/JJ to a river bet after turn checks through. Facing a turn bet with river yet to come, in a 3bet pot vs the aggressor, I would be really surrprised to see a seemingly disciplined player call QQ/JJ. He's gonna hate the bet and he's going to expect a river shove. He might call if it's a half pot bet for showdown though.

I really don't expect to get two more streets from QQ/JJ after this turn, that's extremely optimistic imo. And I think we're much more likely to get value from those at river than turn.

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This is very villain dependent. If I have QQ/JJ as vill I'm waaaay more likely to call a turn bet than call on rive after it goes bet/ck/bet. I mean b/ck/bet is just soo value town and minimal air for most ppl. Whereas ppl could conceivably be betting the turn K as a bluff.

I think in this spot with these positions it's obviously different, cause ranges are so strong. But if this were like btn vs blinds kinda thing, I'd def be scared by a turn check on a Kx.

Also given that, and given that ppl may just fold QQ/JJ to a bet/ck/bet line here then you are essentially just getting freerolled. They will fold to a river bet unless they spike their set and you are giving them a free card.