Is a "Deep State" a bad thing?

I feel like the discussion around the deep state is on one side an insistence that it exists and is unduly exerting its will against the elected representative(s) of the electorate, on the other side it's mostly a denial of the deep state's existence.

The latter argument seems tactically useful but fundamentally flawed. Maybe "Deep State" is too ominous of a name making an argument supporting some form of it an uphill battle. Though, with that said, I am having a tough time seeing the existence of a deep state, that is a large contingent of appointed (and appointed by proxy via hirings by appointees) government employees who's tenures overlap elections, as an inherently bad thing.

What am I missing?

Yes. /thread

It's probably better than the closest antipodal alternative, i.e., mass turnover of all bureaucrats for each election.

I think the problems some people have with the deep state gets lost due to how they talk about the deep state. Their problems are more akin to a deep state so entrenched in power that is becomes corrupted and undermines better governance. The way people who believe that tend to talk about it is "deep state bad".

The deep state issue is probably a natural phenomenon and unavoidable. However, it can probably be mitigated by using a better system of selecting for the deep state and its most relevant components.

Spoon, zZzzZzzz

Wuf, yeah, ok that's essentially what I was getting at, and I think this is the discussion that needs to be had. I think there is a very real danger in having these surface level charges against the deep state. Bureaucrats who don't instantly fall into lock step with the newly elected is not the same as secret society hell bent on disenfranchising the electorate and bringing about a new world order. I agree that the deep state can certainly get out of control, and knowing when that has happened is tough. But to my eyes the deep state appears to be a deeply conservative (small c) institution (in so much as it can be thought of as a single institution) that puts a check on the whims of the masses being exercised via elected officials.

It should be expected that the deep state lags behind the about faces of a new elected official. It should be expected that this is even more pronounced the more radical (no value here) the elected official. Conservative (small c) entities act as damping forces on radical entities. This is a good thing, so long as balance is maintained. However, we may be seeing the start of a trend in which radical forces can come to power, then cow the damping forces present through the same accusations which are being used right now against the deep state.

Just a thought: the fact that the deep state is coming under such heavy open attacks may serve as testimony to the fact that they haven't actually assumed the power their attackers claim they have.

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Originally Posted by boost

Just a thought: the fact that the deep state is coming under such heavy open attacks may serve as testimony to the fact that they haven't actually assumed the power their attackers claim they have.

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I would say that would apply for some of the turbo conspiracies out there. A deep state that does things like leak against a sitting president because they think the president is changing foreign policy doctrine is one that probably wouldn't have the power to ward off incoming heavy attack from outside.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wufwugy

I would say that would apply for some of the turbo conspiracies out there. A deep state that does things like leak against a sitting president because they think the president is changing foreign policy doctrine is one that probably wouldn't have the power to ward off incoming heavy attack from outside.

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A deep state that does this also might be a good. Certainly it is hard to argue that it is a bad whose successful exorcism is worth the dismantling of the entire institution. The other team flops, you either find a way to take advantage of this, or your team starts to flop too, but you don't boycott games against them and demand they be ejected from the league.