Collusion: How rampant (and how bad for the game) is it?

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06-21-2004, 09:29 PM
BermudaBill

Collusion: How rampant (and how bad for the game) is it?

The nature of online poker is such that it facilitates collusion. Players can easily communicate without others being aware (via telephone or IM), and one person can even have multiple entries playing simultaneously (with, at a minimum, the obvious advantages of being able to "squeeze" other players, and/or double up one of the double-entry players with an early all-in).

Questions to the FTR community:

1. How much do you think this is going on online?
2. How much does it really hurt the integrity of the game?
3. Are the sites (like PartyPoker) successfully rooting out the problem?
06-21-2004, 10:09 PM
davfagan

I know that when I was in college and lived with 9 other guys, a few of us played on Poker Stars. Poker Stars would not let us play in the same ring game because our IP addresses would have been the same (using a router to split a cable connection). Also, Neteller had to talk to us because our address info was similar and they didn't want any fraud. Really impressed me.
06-21-2004, 11:01 PM
FyrFytr998

Yeah, but all it takes is different internet addresses to get the whole thing rolling. What I really want to know is if the poker sites keep track of how often players play together on the same tables. I would think that it would be hard to prove collusion on SNG's because of the nature of how they're listed. It really could just be a coincidence if people play against one another on a regular basis, right? Then again, if they don't want to pay up that's their discretion also.

Who knows really. It's all about making money. So I'm sure the sites have a way of making sure they get most of it. Cheaters or not. Just like consumers pay for shoplifting via higher prices. I'm sure the honest players are taking it up the wazoo in some unheard of way.

What's that? I lost to your 7/2 off suit again on the river? Man you must be really good at poker, :roll: I wonder what Party made off the rake on this hand? :wink:
06-21-2004, 11:58 PM
Fnord

Re: Collusion: How rampant (and how bad for the game) is it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BermudaBill

1. How much do you think this is going on online?

Less than most people think. Also, most of those doing it are doing it poorly. Come-on. If you're really bright, the (low limit) games are so soft you don't need to collude.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BermudaBill

2. How much does it really hurt the integrity of the game?

See above point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BermudaBill

3. Are the sites (like PartyPoker) successfully rooting out the problem?

They're doing a better job than brick and motar card rooms.
06-22-2004, 12:49 AM
FyrFytr998

I guess from what I read at another site. The cheating packs really do their dirt at B&M High Limit Tables. And do what is called "Saving Bets", or something to that effect. They also claim that Floor people are in it for a %. Who knows? When I go to the Casino. I play 2/4 Hold'em anyways. I doubt any self respecting cheaters would waste their time playing that limit. You really only worry about the sharks looking to make their take for the day.
06-22-2004, 01:37 AM
johnnyawe

I've got to think that collusion is very rare in the online poker world.

If you are smart enough to work out a collusion system, then you are a good enough player to make a decent profit without the need for collusion and splitting the profit with someone else.
06-22-2004, 05:00 AM
michael1123

I forget which site it is, maybe Party Poker, but I read in the rules of one that they have a "very complex system" for detecting collusion, that watches who plays together often, if certain hands are folded only when another player has a better hand, etc. The site said if the system singled you out as a player that's using collusion, you'd be kicked off of the site, even if there was no hard core proof, since its their right to not allow anyone to play on their system.

Who really knows if this is really the case and their system really detects collusion so well, or if this is just something that they say to try and scare people who consider using it.
06-22-2004, 08:28 AM
LockLow34

Not that I'm proud of it, but I have to admit that I've done this. It was only a couple of times though, and only for a few hands online and in one live single-table tournament. There's a guy I play with live who is also on PP. He'd sit in with me at a table and we'd tell each other to fold, or I'd have him raise behind me when we had someone caught in the middle. In the tournament, we'd fold to each other's raises and re-raises.

But that went badly and it made me decide I wouldn't ever "play partners" again. Basically what happened is I folded a hand I would have played (Jh/Th) and the board showed 4 to a heart flush without either of the other players holding a heart. Had I not folded to my partner's raise I'd have raked a huge pot and had a 5-1 chip lead against the other player. The prize was $270, so making a deal would have left me with over $200. To make matters worse, when HE went on to win he wouldn't even give me a buy-in to another tourney.

It was then that I decided for my own benefit I wouldn't do that again. It affected my judgement and my chances for winning. I don't know that that's the BEST reason to stop doing it but it is what it is, ya know? (I have to say I wouldn't ever actively cheat in any other way, but if someone is flashing cards or doing something accidental or incidental that I can benefit from, I will use that to my advantage.)
06-22-2004, 12:22 PM
Aces

Quote:

Originally Posted by LockLow34

It was then that I decided for my own benefit I wouldn't do that again. It affected my judgement and my chances for winning. I don't know that that's the BEST reason to stop doing it but it is what it is, ya know?

So basically, if you could've made money on it, you would still be doing it? You're right, that's a pretty pathetic reason/excuse to stop cheating. Online or live, cheating is cheating. At least you're honest about it though - it wouldn't shock me if other members or lurkers here have done the same. If someone was flashing cards in a live game I wouldn't look away, but I haven't nor would I ever cheat to gain an advantage. I'd quit playing before I would do that.
06-22-2004, 12:29 PM
ttanaka

I think the online card rooms, particulary Empire Poker and Party Poker are quite intelligent about collusion.

They do track IP addresses, they track others who have played at those same IP addresses, they do notice when players play together more often than normal. If players collude on a table, they will not be able to do it for very long before the poker room is aware of it.

I do not think collusion is much of a problem.
06-22-2004, 12:38 PM
johnnyawe

I wonder about the "tracking system" that party poker and other online rooms use. Mainly becaue I play a weekly party poker game with 1 or 2 friends on Sunday nights. We all sit down at the same 6 person table. We don't collude at all, just play poker as normal, against each other and the rest of the people at teh table. And we don't make any secret of the fact that we're friends (we chat it up pretty good). Still, it must look odd to Party Poker that these same 2 or 3 people are always playing at the same table, and more often than not we're probably winning more than the other people at the table (because we're good players)..

Now that I think about it.. I'm very surprised we havne't heard anything from Party Poker about this.

The closest I came to cheating at cards was playing Euchre on Yahoo Games where my partner was my friend who was sitting right next to me in the computer lab. Amazingly, we still lost. :)
06-22-2004, 12:53 PM
Xianti

{Moved from FTR Community}
06-22-2004, 02:31 PM
LockLow34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aces

So basically, if you could've made money on it, you would still be doing it? You're right, that's a pretty pathetic reason/excuse to stop cheating. Online or live, cheating is cheating.

I'll be honest here. I probably would have gone on with it longer than I did. It's part of my personality to look for a "thrill" and the thrill of doing that would have kept me interested in it for awhile. But in the end my thrill-seeking is tempered by the desire to ultimately do the right thing. And my aim is to learn the game straight up, so I wouldn't have continued long-term. (And I'm good enough now to where I'm beating these same guys I was cheating with before on a fairly consistent basis.)
06-22-2004, 05:45 PM
BermudaBill

Re: Collusion: How rampant (and how bad for the game) is it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by BermudaBill

1. How much do you think this is going on online?

Less than most people think. Also, most of those doing it are doing it poorly. Come-on. If you're really bright, the (low limit) games are so soft you don't need to collude.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BermudaBill

2. How much does it really hurt the integrity of the game?

See above point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BermudaBill

3. Are the sites (like PartyPoker) successfully rooting out the problem?

They're doing a better job than brick and motar card rooms.

_______________

re: 1: I agree that it's not likely to be a problem on the low-limit games but I don't really play low limit (usually $25-50 BI 6-player NL HE, and $20-$30 BI 3-table NL HE SNGs). Further, as FyrFytr998 pointed out, if there is a problem it's likely to be more prevalent at the higher buy-in/limit games. Anyway, to the extent that it IS going on, maybe you're right that most people are doing it poorly (LockLow34 provides some credence to that view). Not exactly the comfort I was looking for, but at least something...

re: 3: You're probably right that online casinos are doing a better job of catching colluders, but it would be nice to see evidence of that. PartyPoker should advertise how and when they do "catch" (and presumably banish...not sure what else they can do?) cheaters so that the "honest" players can feel some satisfaction/security about PP's efforts on that front.
06-22-2004, 06:03 PM
BermudaBill

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheNatural

I wonder about the "tracking system" that party poker and other online rooms use. Mainly becaue I play a weekly party poker game with 1 or 2 friends on Sunday nights. We all sit down at the same 6 person table. We don't collude at all, just play poker as normal, against each other and the rest of the people at teh table. And we don't make any secret of the fact that we're friends (we chat it up pretty good). Still, it must look odd to Party Poker that these same 2 or 3 people are always playing at the same table, and more often than not we're probably winning more than the other people at the table (because we're good players)..

Now that I think about it.. I'm very surprised we havne't heard anything from Party Poker about this.

The closest I came to cheating at cards was playing Euchre on Yahoo Games where my partner was my friend who was sitting right next to me in the computer lab. Amazingly, we still lost. :)

____________

interesting. it does seem surprising (and a bit concerning) that PP hasn't sent you and your friends some sort of "big brother is watching" email so that you all know to watch your step. maybe you should send PP an email explaining your situation and asking them about their collusion screening criteria?