Limp-reraise AA or KK gets screwed

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08-20-2004, 11:44 AM
stevedonel

Limp-reraise AA or KK gets screwed

Played in my home game last night. Lost $20 on the tourney. I would have had the chip lead half way through, but lost ½ my stack when 22 cracked my QQ; I read him like a book too. Just dwindled down from there until going allin for 6x BB, UTG with KK; AQ shot me down.

However I made $24 in the side game, so up $4 for the whole night.

My only bad play of the night leads me to my question: How often to limp-reraise with AA or KK? In the cash game, the 100% maniac was sitting to my left, and a very solid aggresive player to his left. Both of them had been raising it 3-5x BB all night. To my dismay it called around and the BB checked. Flop 22x, BB raises small, I put him on a 2 (little f@¢ktard). However there were two callers in front of me, so pot odds became stellar with my 2 outs. Turn was nothing, BB bets fairly large. We all fold, mine is face-up. Fortunately for me, I didnt catch the A on the turn; I would have definately tried to slow play my Aces full. Rabbit hunting showed the river was another 2.

So how often do you get hosed when you make this play?
08-20-2004, 12:41 PM
drmcboy

well I'm a newbie to the board and to the game, but so far I've lost a lot more money with AA KK than I've won trying to slow play. Sucks to see KK and just pick up blinds... but personally I've found if you don't protect them some goof playing J5o will always get that J5x flop and crack you.
08-20-2004, 02:37 PM
Tenny

I agree, I slow played my KK and even hit another K on the flop. I bet to try and keep at least one person in with me, it worked and the bastard got a straight on the river. I even raised 4x the blind pre flop and he called it with a 10 Q. Amazing.
08-20-2004, 03:16 PM
Humphrind

I played last night at a live game. I had a player to my right. He seemed to only have 2 moves. limp-raise and check-raise. I was very interested in his play, so I observed.

He limped in with any face card, and would raise with 2 cards >T or any pocket pair. After the flop he would check-raise top pair (regardless of kicker) 2 pair or an outside straight draw / flush draw.

He seemed to take a lot of big pots. He waited for someone else to bet, then he would over-bet the pot (600 pot, 400 raise and he re-raised 2,000 more) But he also lost a lot of big pots. People picked up on this and used it against him. There would be a lot of checking on the flop. Then I saw someone else put out a minimum raise with a straight. My subject check-raised (as was expected) with top pair and lost half his stack.

I think his move was very good, but he over-played it. Just something to keep in mind when you want to limp-raise or check-raise.

Side note: Funny hand. My subject went all in for about 2,000 (half my stack) and I had 99. I considered calling and I would have, but there were still 6 people to act after me. I showed him (not the rest of the table) and folded. I still say it was a good fold, but if him and I had gone head-to-head, I would have won.

Very next hand, he check-raised on the flop all in. He flipped over his pocket 9s and lost. The table had a short conversation about, "Well, it was a good move, you can't fold pocket 9s." I turned to him and said, "Yes, you can fold 99. I just did it last hand. Remember?"
08-20-2004, 05:29 PM
Krapp

Im assuming you had position on these 2. Also, I am not sure what the play was on preflop. Im guessing, you limped in and they called around and flop hit.

(1) Preflop: Limp, raise, or allin.
- Limp: I am hoping for a bet or raise from these folks so I can go all-in and take the pot down there (they are putting 5xBB before the flop). if they dont bet and flop hits, I am betting 3xBB+ to the river, assuming no push back from them. If they are betting flop, I would reraise to hopefully knocking them out. If they stay in, I would keep the bets conservative to the river if the call the flop bet. You dont want to get overally agressive on the turn and river since you already represented a strong hand and if they are in at that point, they could bust you at the end.
- Raise: I would raise (3x-4xBB) so any crap/marginal hands are gone (like 2x from the blinds)
- All-in: If I know these folks like gambling and have an outside change to call my all-in, I would do it. Especially good, if they have already bet or raised in-font of you

The general rule of thumb is to take down these pots early and be aware of getting busted at the end. I think the worst thing to do is over play your AA, KK and be too commited to the pot on the turn/river if someone completes their hand.
08-20-2004, 05:37 PM
Fnord

Re: Limp-reraise AA or KK gets screwed

Quote:

Originally Posted by rdu steve

So how often do you get hosed when you make this play?

*shrug* You didn't lose your stack, so I wouldn't say you got hosed. When you limp from UTG and fail to draw a raise you just got to be willing to let your hand go, which you were.
08-20-2004, 05:40 PM
Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by Humphrind

Side note: Funny hand. My subject went all in for about 2,000 (half my stack) and I had 99. I considered calling and I would have, but there were still 6 people to act after me. I showed him (not the rest of the table) and folded. I still say it was a good fold, but if him and I had gone head-to-head, I would have won.

You wouldn't get away with that at my table. Show one, show all.
08-20-2004, 05:51 PM
Humphrind

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krapp

Im assuming you had position on these 2.

I don't know what you are talking about but the answer is no.
I assume you are refering to rdu steve's side game. He says that the maniac was on his left, and the solid aggressive player was left of the maniac, so no position there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krapp

Also, I am not sure what the play was on preflop. Im guessing, you limped in and they called around and flop hit.

Yes, it wasn't worded perfect but he says tht he expected someone to raise pre-flop. He was going for a limp-raise but he was dissapointed to find no one raised.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krapp

(1) Preflop: Limp, raise, or allin.

You sure like lists, don't you? :wink:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krapp

The general rule of thumb is to take down these pots early and be aware of getting busted at the end. I think the worst thing to do is over play your AA, KK and be too commited to the pot on the turn/river if someone completes their hand.

There are some instances where your AA / KK will get out-drawn. There are some instances where you will improve and pull out ahead. And there are some instances where nothing will help you or him and you will win with just what is in your hand.

There has been a rumor floating around that AA only has a 30% chance to win a hand. I think this started when someone looked up the stats (or saw the stats on TV) against a full table. These people don't realize that AA, or ANY hand is rarely played against a full table. AA is an almost 80% favorite against any 2 cards. The numbers go down 3-way, down further 4-way. You key is to clear the table to 1 or 2 players. Then play accordingly. If you are short handed (say you are in a SnG with 5 people left and blinds at 300 / 600) you will not see a lot of action by raising 4-5X BB. You are better off limping or raising double the BB. You probably will still get a 2 or 3 way pot.

I have thrown away AA heads up at the turn.
08-20-2004, 05:54 PM
Humphrind

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

You wouldn't get away with that at my table. Show one, show all.

I would have been happy to show anyone and everyone, after the betting was over. The check-raiser couldn't bet any more, so I knew it was safe to show him. And no one else asked, or I would have.
08-20-2004, 08:29 PM
Schlafly

I think AA and KK are highly overrated. Pre-flop, yeah it's the best hand to have. But I've seen it go to hell post flop. I can't say I'm dissapointed to be dealt these cards, but I've lost a lot more than I've wanted to with these two monster hands.

I prefer a lot of the oddball hands. When it comes down to it, I think I play better with nothing then the best hand possible. I suppose it's a psychological thing.

In a ten handed game, AA just isn't as powerful as it's cracked up to be. Especially in a limit game where you're likely to have to show down the best hand for the pot.

I play a lot more in casinos then I do online now, in the beginning, I had several tough beats with a Monster pair in the hole. I've learned to cut back and never overplay my aces or kings. As for preflop. Don't assume smooth calling pocket aces the best approach in a ten handed game. Protect your hand and jam the pot, filter out some of those people that would call with connectors for just a little call in the small blind for example.

I began playing bigger limit games, the competition is a lot more tight and the tables aren't always full. A ten handed $3/$6 game can be tough. I play good against poker players, not people who think they're poker players.
08-23-2004, 02:01 PM
stevedonel

thanks for the quality replies

I was re-reading the NLHE section of Super System a little this weekend, and found an interesting perspective by Doyle:

"AA or KK tend to win alot of small pots or lose very big pots. Where as a hand like AK can hit and win big or miss and lose very little, because its easy to fold when it misses" -or something like that.

I guess the first time I read Super System, I was still pretty new to Hold 'Em, and that went over my head. Starting to think maybe I should go through the whole thing again.
08-23-2004, 04:43 PM
heatman

Quote:

Originally Posted by rdu steve

"AA or KK tend to win alot of small pots or lose very big pots. Where as a hand like AK can hit and win big or miss and lose very little, because its easy to fold when it misses" -or something like that.

I'd say I agree with that. Once I learned to bet AK hard pre-flop, and let it go if the going got tough post, I turned it into a long term winner.

KK, on the other hand is in to me big time because for awhile I was playing it like a no-brainer. Gotta be careful with this hand with a re-raise back at you pre-flop, and you can't quit thinking after the flop. Don't hit a set and its only a big pair. There are alot of hands that can beat you, and if you don't get the real dogs out with your pre-flop raise, you're in trouble. Any Ax can beat you with the overcard, etc.

AA on the other hand, I've never had trouble with, because I play it like the monster it is. 3X raise coming around and come back hard to any re-raises. Get your money in against one or two people and hope for the best. You're a big favorite.

The people who are always complaining about AA are the ones who can't throw it away if they try to limp, don't get a chance to chase out the real dog hands and then can't throw it away if the flop is ugly. Nothing scarier than trying to limp re-raise, getting 5 callers and having 9c7c7s flop. Can't chase out the draws because the 7 may be out there, and can't fold it because its AA.

I think you did a good job of letting it go. Limp, re-raise is a good strategy with a tight table where an early raise folds everyone, but if you don't get the chance to re-raise, you gotta be willing to let go. Nice job.