I don't care what you know

Here is the whole hand. It doesn't matter if you know the beginning, middle or end. I think my biggest problem in limit is playing the ALMOST great hands. JJ, AKo, etc. Here's an example where I got lucky, but what can I do to increase my chances of winning / get my hand head-to-head.

PokerStars Game #677847239: Hold'em Limit ($0.25/$0.50) - 2004/09/09 - 00:07:54 (ET)
Table 'T #6657826' Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: Cuzz ($3.55 in chips)
Seat 2: downtown32 ($14.25 in chips)
Seat 4: Humphrind ($11.25 in chips)
Seat 5: shapcam ($29 in chips)
Seat 6: batman3939 ($1.75 in chips)
Seat 7: FireStartaNZ ($13.10 in chips)
Seat 8: Jedi Poker ($12.10 in chips)
Seat 9: Shargaas ($15.35 in chips)
Seat 10: Hayduke_mms ($5.85 in chips)
batman3939: posts small blind $0.10
FireStartaNZ: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Humphrind [As Kh]
Jedi Poker: folds
Shargaas: folds
Hayduke_mms: folds
Cuzz: folds
downtown32: calls $0.25
Humphrind: raises $0.25 to $0.50
shapcam: folds
batman3939: calls $0.40
FireStartaNZ: calls $0.25
downtown32: calls $0.25
*** FLOP *** [6d 9d Kc]
batman3939: checks
FireStartaNZ: checks
downtown32: bets $0.25
Humphrind: raises $0.25 to $0.50
batman3939: folds
FireStartaNZ: calls $0.50
downtown32: calls $0.25
*** TURN *** [6d 9d Kc] [9h]
FireStartaNZ: checks
downtown32: checks
Humphrind: bets $0.50
FireStartaNZ: calls $0.50
downtown32: calls $0.50
*** RIVER *** [6d 9d Kc 9h] [2h]
FireStartaNZ: bets $0.50
downtown32: folds
Humphrind: calls $0.50
*** SHOW DOWN ***
FireStartaNZ: shows [Td 7d] (a pair of Nines)
Humphrind: shows [As Kh] (two pair, Kings and Nines)
Humphrind collected $5.75 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $6 | Rake $0.25
Board [6d 9d Kc 9h 2h]
Seat 1: Cuzz folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: downtown32 folded on the River
Seat 4: Humphrind showed [As Kh] and won ($5.75) with two pair, Kings and Nines
Seat 5: shapcam (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: batman3939 (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 7: FireStartaNZ (big blind) showed [Td 7d] and lost with a pair of Nines
Seat 8: Jedi Poker folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: Shargaas folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 10: Hayduke_mms folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Here's another one.

PokerStars Game #677865116: Hold'em Limit ($0.25/$0.50) - 2004/09/09 - 00:14:00 (ET)
Table 'T #6657826' Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: Cuzz ($3.20 in chips)
Seat 2: downtown32 ($11.25 in chips)
Seat 3: sophietucker ($5.65 in chips)
Seat 4: Humphrind ($14.50 in chips)
Seat 5: shapcam ($25 in chips)
Seat 6: batman3939 ($4.35 in chips)
Seat 7: FireStartaNZ ($9.60 in chips)
Seat 8: Jedi Poker ($13.35 in chips)
Seat 9: SeaSide ($10 in chips)
Seat 10: Hayduke_mms ($6.10 in chips)
Humphrind: posts small blind $0.10
shapcam: posts big blind $0.25
SeaSide: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Humphrind [Qh 5c]
batman3939: calls $0.25
FireStartaNZ: calls $0.25
Jedi Poker: folds
SeaSide: checks
Hayduke_mms: folds
Cuzz: calls $0.25
downtown32: folds
sophietucker: calls $0.25
Humphrind: calls $0.15
shapcam: checks
*** FLOP *** [5s Qc Jc]
Humphrind: bets $0.25
shapcam: folds
batman3939: folds
FireStartaNZ: calls $0.25
SeaSide: folds
Cuzz: folds
sophietucker: raises $0.25 to $0.50
Humphrind: raises $0.25 to $0.75
FireStartaNZ: folds
sophietucker: calls $0.25
*** TURN *** [5s Qc Jc] [5h]
Humphrind: checks
sophietucker: checks
*** RIVER *** [5s Qc Jc 5h] [6d]
Humphrind: bets $0.50
sophietucker: calls $0.50
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Humphrind: shows [Qh 5c] (a full house, Fives full of Queens)
sophietucker: mucks hand
Humphrind collected $4.50 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $4.50 | Rake $0
Board [5s Qc Jc 5h 6d]
Seat 1: Cuzz folded on the Flop
Seat 2: downtown32 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: sophietucker (button) mucked [Qs Ac] - two pair, Queens and Fives
Seat 4: Humphrind (small blind) showed [Qh 5c] and won ($4.50) with a full house, Fives full of Queens
Seat 5: shapcam (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 6: batman3939 folded on the Flop
Seat 7: FireStartaNZ folded on the Flop
Seat 8: Jedi Poker folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: SeaSide folded on the Flop
Seat 10: Hayduke_mms folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Should I have bet the turn? I was assuming Firestarta had a draw and was wanting him out of the hand, hence the . But I guessed my check on the turn would induce a bet and give me a check-raising opportunity. I was wrong. I bet on the river to get something more in the pot.

Last hand, for now.

PokerStars Game #677877377: Hold'em Limit ($0.25/$0.50) - 2004/09/09 - 00:18:19 (ET)
Table 'T #6657826' Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: Cuzz ($2.95 in chips)
Seat 2: downtown32 ($9.75 in chips)
Seat 3: sophietucker ($4.15 in chips)
Seat 4: Humphrind ($17.50 in chips)
Seat 6: batman3939 ($5.60 in chips)
Seat 7: FireStartaNZ ($8.10 in chips)
Seat 8: Jedi Poker ($15.85 in chips)
Seat 9: SeaSide ($9.50 in chips)
Seat 10: Hayduke_mms ($5.60 in chips)
Jedi Poker: posts small blind $0.10
SeaSide: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Humphrind [9s 9c]
Hayduke_mms: calls $0.25
Cuzz: folds
downtown32: folds
sophietucker: raises $0.25 to $0.50
Humphrind: raises $0.25 to $0.75
batman3939: folds
FireStartaNZ: folds
Jedi Poker: folds
SeaSide: folds
SeaSide is sitting out
Hayduke_mms: calls $0.50
sophietucker: calls $0.25
*** FLOP *** [7h Ts 8h]
SeaSide leaves the table
Hayduke_mms: checks
sophietucker: checks
Humphrind: bets $0.25
Hayduke_mms: calls $0.25
sophietucker: calls $0.25
*** TURN *** [7h Ts 8h] [7s]
Hayduke_mms: checks
sophietucker: checks
Humphrind: bets $0.50
Hayduke_mms: calls $0.50
sophietucker: calls $0.50
*** RIVER *** [7h Ts 8h 7s] [4d]
Hayduke_mms: checks
sophietucker: checks
Nashman4004 joins the table at seat #5
Humphrind: bets $0.50
Hayduke_mms: folds
sophietucker: folds
Humphrind collected $4.85 from pot
Humphrind: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $4.85 | Rake $0
Board [7h Ts 8h 7s 4d]
Seat 1: Cuzz folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: downtown32 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: sophietucker folded on the River
Seat 4: Humphrind collected ($4.85)
Seat 6: batman3939 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: FireStartaNZ (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: Jedi Poker (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: SeaSide (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 10: Hayduke_mms folded on the River


Again with the pocket 9s. I missed everything and really considered checking the river. But I realized with a draw heavy board, and the river no help, I should bet. I bet, I won. Extreme luck or good strategy?

Hand 1

Perfect

Hand 2
Pre-flop: Fold unless it's suited. You'll pay off a dominating hand too often.
Flop: Well done
Turn: Must bet here. Only try to check raise if you don't 3-bet the flop or he caps. This isn't NL where you can make up missed rounds of betting
River: Yup

Hand 3
Pre-flop: 3-bet is close. My minimum is TT unless I'm dealing with a maniac.
Flop: Good
Turn: Good
River: Read dependent. Enough players call with an Ace here that this is probably a good bet. Check behind tricky/aggressive players.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fnord

Hand 2
Pre-flop: Fold unless it's suited. You'll pay off a dominating hand too often.

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I will defend my pre-flop until the day I die. I only completed the small blind. In NL as well as limit, I'll do this.

But you said I should only check the turn if I don't 3-bet the flop. WOuld it have been a good move to call a raise on the flop? with 2 pair? I obviously wasn't that confident in turning a full house. But in hindsight, calling would have given me check-raise ability on the turn. I will remember that. Feining weakness is a lot easier in NL.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Humphrind

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fnord

Hand 2
Pre-flop: Fold unless it's suited. You'll pay off a dominating hand too often.

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I will defend my pre-flop until the day I die. I only completed the small blind. In NL as well as limit, I'll do this.

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In limit it's a leak. Particularly starting out, you'll pay off too much with it. Fold A5o here too.

Hump, when I just starting to play serious limit about 6 months ago you would had me on board with your preflop small blind completion. But now after studying and playing it is a leak that costs you bundles long term in limit. Tell me how you win more than you lose with that hand in particlular? You have to get lucky to have top pair with horrible kicker or two pair. A five isnt going to win you anything unless it trips somehow, it s unsuited so no flush possible. Do you fold this hand if the BB raises?
I just want to know why you thinks its a smart thing to do?

I agree with the poster above and the poster above him . . .

I'll refer you to what TJ said to a late limper with regard to completeing the SB "Why don't you fold that trash".

I agree to Toasty agreeing with the two posters above his post. Suited, at least you have some more options. In NL, it can work, especially if you're willing to play it aggressively (if you flop a pair of 5s with one over for example ... although your position still blows). In limit, you're setting yourself up to have to call down with a pair of Qs and a horrid kicker or a lowly pair of 5s, or you're going to fold on the flop or turn 99% of the time, wasting the difference between the BB and SB and possibly also wasting a call on the flop (if you hit one of your cards on the flop, call, and fold to a blank turn).

Plus the SB is 10 cents and the BB is 25. You should be more willing to fold SB hands here than if the SB were half the size of the BB. On the other hand, when the SB is 2/3rds of the BB, I think you can be pretty damn loose on completing the SB, only folding the truly horrid hands. But still ... Q6o is pretty horrid. 76o may even be a better hand to complete with if there's a lot of limpers, being connected and very unlikely to be dominated.

Also keep in mind that you will be first to act for the rest of the hand.

One simple rule I follow for SB play is if I wouldn't call with it on the button I won't complete, unless, it's suited and I'm getting good odds.

OK, you got me. I accept that the limit players all say it's a bad move to complete the SB with bad / marginal hands, so it's a bad move. I will still do this in NL, but you have talked me out of doing this in limit.

I played in this ring game for about 2 hours, and I ended last night's limit session + 40BB. I'm sure a little luck was involved, but I also had some help. :wink: Thanks for the help.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Humphrind

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fnord

Hand 2
Pre-flop: Fold unless it's suited. You'll pay off a dominating hand too often.

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I will defend my pre-flop until the day I die. I only completed the small blind. In NL as well as limit, I'll do this.

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In limit it's a leak. Particularly starting out, you'll pay off too much with it. Fold A5o here too.

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I should have guessed this in limit, as implied odds basically go out the door, but have never consciously repeated this to myself. thanks.

with that in mind, i'd basically have to agree with Fnord, though I can't say I'd have played it differently than you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Humphrind

OK, you got me. I accept that the limit players all say it's a bad move to complete the SB with bad / marginal hands, so it's a bad move. I will still do this in NL, but you have talked me out of doing this in limit.

I played in this ring game for about 2 hours, and I ended last night's limit session + 40BB. I'm sure a little luck was involved, but I also had some help. :wink: Thanks for the help.

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I find it very helpful to think of defending my small blind this way:

If I will not call multiple limpers on the button with a hand, then I will not complete my small blind with it.