Get your money in the pot

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03-17-2005, 05:59 PM
a500lbgorilla

Get your money in the pot

Hand 1:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) converter

MP2 ($158.65)
MP3 ($111.6)
CO ($89.4)
Button ($52)
SB ($139.85)
BB ($109.9)
UTG ($98)
UTG+1 ($45.6)
UTG+2 ($121.4)
Hero ($266.2)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with J:diamond:, Q:diamond:. SB posts a blind of $0.5.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $1, 1 fold, Hero calls $1, 5 folds, BB checks.

Flop: ($3.50) K:diamond:, 2:diamond:, A:diamond: (3 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 bets $2, Hero...

BB and UTG+1 average players. Tight and straightforward.

Hand 2:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) converter

MP3 ($158.65)
CO ($111.6)
Button ($89.4)
SB ($99)
BB ($140.85)
UTG ($110.9)
UTG+1 ($99)
UTG+2 ($45.6)
MP1 ($121.4)
Hero ($219.2)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q:spade:, Q:club:. SB posts a blind of $0.5.
UTG calls $1, UTG+1 calls $1, 2 folds, Hero raises to $7, 3 folds, SB (poster) calls $6.50, 1 fold, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds.

Flop: ($17) 4:diamond:, A:heart:, Q:diamond: (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $15, SB calls $15.

Turn: ($47) 2:club: (2 players)
SB checks, Hero...

SB is tight, knows how to bet. Doesn't showdown weak.

-'rilla
03-17-2005, 06:07 PM
ilikeaces86

First hand raise

Second hand raise( if he is tight he has something he will call you down with AQ AK maybe?
03-17-2005, 06:16 PM
Spook

Hand 1 smooth call, raise turn 1/4 pot if checked - call any bet, get it all in there on the river.

Hand 2 raise a bit harder, but your not afraid of action.
03-17-2005, 06:29 PM
a500lbgorilla

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilikeaces86

Second hand raise( if he is tight he has something he will call you down with AQ AK maybe?

I agree that he has something to call me on the flop. But If you want him to have much more confidence in AK or even AJ, checking the turn would heavily represent KK.

Of course, if you check. You hope that he pot commits himself with a juicy river bet that you get double for an AI.

-'rilla
03-17-2005, 06:32 PM
a500lbgorilla

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spook

Hand 1 smooth call, raise turn 1/4 pot if checked - call any bet, get it all in there on the river.

His bet is a feeler bet. If he bets the turn, it'll be small again. No way you make it a big pot with small action on these 2 streets.

Smooth calling is hoping to open the door for BB to come in too. But do you have any reason believe he'll take the bait?

-'rilla
03-17-2005, 06:43 PM
Sed

Hand 1: min-raise to 4$, call any re-raise and then raise him all in on the turn.
Hand 2: bet 10-15$ and hope he comes over you sensing weakness

- sed
03-17-2005, 06:46 PM
Spook

My thought is whats the harm? Its the only way I see getting any more money out of them.
03-17-2005, 06:46 PM
a500lbgorilla

Quote:

Originally Posted by sed

Hand 1: min-raise to 4$, call any re-raise and then raise him all in on the turn.

You're damning the pot to a life of small-ness! Pot won't be big enough for any non-flush hand to go AI on the turn.

If you min bet the flop, you should just value bet your hand to the end and take down a decent pot. Bet 5, bet 10.

-'rilla
03-17-2005, 06:47 PM
a500lbgorilla

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spook

My thought is whats the harm? Its the only way I see getting any more money out of them.

You're trying to maximize the profits of your big hands. It's key to being a profitable player.

-'rilla
03-17-2005, 06:48 PM
Sed

raise it up to ~10$ ? I don't think you would get called often enough to make it profitable with any higher raise than that.

- sed
03-17-2005, 06:51 PM
Spook

Quote:

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spook

My thought is whats the harm? Its the only way I see getting any more money out of them.

You're trying to maximize the profits of your big hands. It's key to being a profitable player.

-'rilla

So what are you advocating here (hand 1)? If you re-raise BB will almost certainly fold, and I seriously doutp you can get UTG+1 to put any more in.
03-17-2005, 06:52 PM
a500lbgorilla

Quote:

Originally Posted by sed

raise it up to ~10$ ?

Me likey. You raise it up. If he comes at you, you've got a pot building itself already.

Sets and two pair will probably flat call themselves into a big pot (General weak play from these stakes) And possibly even a stubborn top pair.

The same hands that will call your value bets on your min-raise line will call your big raise and larger value bets a good enough portion of the time.

-'rilla
03-17-2005, 06:59 PM
a500lbgorilla

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spook

Quote:

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spook

My thought is whats the harm? Its the only way I see getting any more money out of them.

You're trying to maximize the profits of your big hands. It's key to being a profitable player.

-'rilla

So what are you advocating here (hand 1)? If you re-raise BB will almost certainly fold, and I seriously doutp you can get UTG+1 to put any more in.

There are two lines to play here. Raise small, value bet, value bet. This has a higher chance of going to showdown but is a smaller pot.

Big raise, large value bet, large value bet makes a much larger pot but won't work as much.

I like the second one becuase the river value bet could easily end up being an AI against a stubborn and poor player.

-'rilla
03-17-2005, 07:06 PM
a500lbgorilla

Quote:

Originally Posted by sed

Hand 2: bet 10-15$ and hope he comes over you sensing weakness

A second bet of 15 wouldn't appear suspicious to you?

If I overbet the flop and he called, I could see betting the same ammount on the turn for high value.

-'rilla
03-17-2005, 07:43 PM
bspahn

so what's the concensus on the most profitable way to play these two hands? Obviously depends on the players and what they're likely to have. I'd almost think it's worth dragging to the turn without too much betting to really see how strong/weak they are and what they're willing to fork out for you.
03-17-2005, 07:48 PM
a500lbgorilla

Quote:

Originally Posted by bspahn

so what's the concensus on the most profitable way to play these two hands? Obviously depends on the players and what they're likely to have. I'd almost think it's worth dragging to the turn without too much betting to really see how strong/weak they are and what they're willing to fork out for you.

From my description and their flop play, you should already be able to know what kind of money you'll be getting out of them.

-'rilla
03-17-2005, 08:01 PM
bspahn

hand1: likely not to get much with him leading out on a weak/feeler bet, but if you min-raise and he re-raises then you got a good one.

hand2: could be a good one, obviously he's got something and you can take em down. i wouldnt put him on AQ for a check-call so I figure AK or AJ perhaps, you pretty much have to bet the turn or he'll likely check for a free card after you - likely throw something weak out and push if he raises.

what did you end up doing
03-17-2005, 08:24 PM
a500lbgorilla

Quote:

Originally Posted by bspahn

hand1: likely not to get much with him leading out on a weak/feeler bet, but if you min-raise and he re-raises then you got a good one.

hand2: could be a good one, obviously he's got something and you can take em down. i wouldnt put him on AQ for a check-call so I figure AK or AJ perhaps, you pretty much have to bet the turn or he'll likely check for a free card after you - likely throw something weak out and push if he raises.

what did you end up doing

Hand 1: does figure to be a smallish pot usually. I pumped it up to 8, he called. He check calls 15 and 25 on the turn and river. Just some nice value bets.

Hand 2: I checked behind on the turn to represent KK. He had 75 left. He pot for 45, I waited and minraised him, he calls and shows A:diamond:J:diamond: (:diamond:s that didn't come).

-'rilla
03-18-2005, 12:15 AM
dsaxton

Quote:

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilikeaces86

Second hand raise( if he is tight he has something he will call you down with AQ AK maybe?

I agree that he has something to call me on the flop. But If you want him to have much more confidence in AK or even AJ, checking the turn would heavily represent KK.

Of course, if you check. You hope that he pot commits himself with a juicy river bet that you get double for an AI.

-'rilla

I'm not sure checking is necessarily the best thing to do. It's entirely possible that he's holding a hand like A-J or A-K suited in diamonds. If this happens to be the case, checking risks forfeiting the pot. Why not just bet again on the turn since he showed a willingness to call on the flop?
03-18-2005, 12:21 AM
a500lbgorilla

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsaxton

I'm not sure checking is necessarily the best thing to do. It's entirely possible that he's holding a hand like A-J or A-K suited in diamonds. If this happens to be the case, checking risks forfeiting the pot. Why not just bet again on the turn since he showed a willingness to call on the flop?

He may drop it on the turn to another pot bet. Also, if I make a smaller more callable bet, he's making a winning move by calling with the implied odds of the hand as well as better pot odds. I can get away from the hand with a river diamond, but he'll have a hard time getting away from his AJ if he leads out and bets.

Against someone who doesn't showdown as strong as he has been doing, I definitly bet the turn assuming he'll check a missed flush on the river.

-'rilla
03-18-2005, 03:59 AM
bspahn

once again shows the importance of a decent read, playing the player. you buy yourself a good lunch with some of the profits?
03-18-2005, 10:17 AM
TylerK

Hand 1: Just call, hope the BB comes along. Is UTG+1 going to bet or check the turn? If he bets I may just flat call again. Though you're holding the nuts, this is a hand that isn't going to win you much money unless someone falls in love with a lower flush. Try to get what you can out of it by keeping the bets callable. You may want to pop it big on the river so it looks like you're buying it because nobody has shown much strength, but honestly I just don't think there's a good way to get a lot of money out of this hand.

One other option: push the flop? That's a move that looks like "not a flush but a decent hand," maybe if someone hit a set or thereabouts they might call you.

Hand 2: Looks pretty obviously like AK, less likely (but hopefully) AQ. I keep betting about pot sized, AK will probably call you down if you keep it reasonable.
03-18-2005, 03:22 PM
Dunk

Re: Get your money in the pot

This is very interesting to me, and maybe my reaction is a sign of where I need to improve my game, so let the newb talk out loud here and you can tell me where I'm way wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Hand 1:
Flop: ($3.50) K:diamond:, 2:diamond:, A:diamond: (3 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 bets $2, Hero...

BB and UTG+1 average players. Tight and straightforward.

Okay, you've absolutely got the best possible hand. Most times I've played, when the flop comes all one suit, the players get very jumpy. Any re-raise of UTG1 sounds like it will definitely drive BB away. UTG1 probably is thinking he's made his Ace pair and is maybe pushing.

Even a call here might not get BB's $1 in the pot, but you have nothing to fear from the turn, so I'm thinking call. If BB stays in, then after the turn there's a good chance that UTG will still like his cards and volunteer even more money. Then on river if you suddenly get aggressive, he may see it as an attempt to take it and that's where the pot gets to surge.

Quote:

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Hand 2:
Turn: ($47) 2:club: (2 players)
SB checks, Hero...

SB is tight, knows how to bet. Doesn't showdown weak.

SB followed on a big bet of $15, so I'm guessing he has an Ace suited with another diamond. He was willing to follow the huge raise due to his Ace-pair with the possibility of a flush. Now that no diamond came on the turn, he's not as confident, but the Ace pair still looks decent. Another $15 bet might string him along, but if a diamond comes up on the river you'd better be ready to walk.

Alternatively, go in hard. SB is substantially short-stacked to you. He only has approx $75 left. Bet the full size of his stack and force him to make an All-in call with an incomplete flush.

-dunk
03-18-2005, 03:57 PM
a500lbgorilla

Re: Get your money in the pot

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dunk

This is very interesting to me, and maybe my reaction is a sign of where I need to improve my game, so let the newb talk out loud here and you can tell me where I'm way wrong.

Alright

Quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Hand 1:
Flop: ($3.50) K:diamond:, 2:diamond:, A:diamond: (3 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 bets $2, Hero...

BB and UTG+1 average players. Tight and straightforward.

Okay, you've absolutely got the best possible hand. Most times I've played, when the flop comes all one suit, the players get very jumpy. Any re-raise of UTG1 sounds like it will definitely drive BB away. UTG1 probably is thinking he's made his Ace pair and is maybe pushing.

Even a call here might not get BB's $1 in the pot, but you have nothing to fear from the turn, so I'm thinking call. If BB stays in, then after the turn there's a good chance that UTG will still like his cards and volunteer even more money. Then on river if you suddenly get aggressive, he may see it as an attempt to take it and that's where the pot gets to surge.

True, he probably has an ace and players do get very jumpy on an all flush board. However, he'll only be confident in his ace if I fold to the turn feeler bet he'll most likely make. A raise might get him to out think himself since not many players would raise here with the flush. That was my goal, to get him to out think himself and fall into a big pot. If he has two pair, this will work a lot more frequently then a strong ace.

Quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Hand 2:
Turn: ($47) 2:club: (2 players)
SB checks, Hero...

SB is tight, knows how to bet. Doesn't showdown weak.

SB followed on a big bet of $15, so I'm guessing he has an Ace suited with another diamond. He was willing to follow the huge raise due to his Ace-pair with the possibility of a flush. Now that no diamond came on the turn, he's not as confident, but the Ace pair still looks decent. Another $15 bet might string him along, but if a diamond comes up on the river you'd better be ready to walk.

Alternatively, go in hard. SB is substantially short-stacked to you. He only has approx $75 left. Bet the full size of his stack and force him to make an All-in call with an incomplete flush.

-dunk

I don't think I'll be able to get him AI on the turn with the flush draw but I can get him AI on the river with just an A. If I can represent KK with a check on the turn. I didn't think he'd have A and the flush draw when I played the hand.

I thought he had just the good ace during the hand. Had I also put him on ace + flush draw (which would have been a wierd sort of read) I'd have bet 20 on the turn and commit him. But he'll drop a good ace on the turn to more agression in most cases.

-'rilla