Make EVERY Hand a Drawing Hand...

I was thinking about this idea and it seems to make more and more sense as I do. Most people on this site are good enough to realize that almost all hands are drawing hands. If AK is a drawing hand then the only non-drawing hands are AA KK and perhaps QQ (this does assume you believe AK to be drawing preflop).

So my thought is to also classify these last 3 hands into the drawing hands category. Don't raise preflop with aces, hit your set and take the other guy's stack. Who would honestly put you on the absolute nuts with no raise. Usually when we get AA or KK, we let the expectations we have of the hand cloud our judgement. We say, okay im holding aces, if I lose this hand I did something wrong....and out comes the monster preflop raise.

I say control this idea and raise aces like you would 8s. No preflop raises with a top 3 hand, hit your set, and take all the chips at the table. Throw in a few hard raises with suited connectors or lower pockets and youre sure to have a table that cant put you on cards.

I was playing with this idea yesterday when I got dealt KK. 2 preflop raisers and I just called. Flop is AK3 (2 cards suited) and they both go all in. One shows AQ other shows AJ with a flush draw. Neither could believe I was holding kings and played it so passively. 2 non-flush cards later, I was $100 richer.

My thoughts, let me know what you think.

So you think you should play passively preflop, hit a hand and win.

Do you believe you will hit a hand enough to win?

Do you think you'll be able to extract money well?

How will you draw when the pot will be so small?

What about hands where you have AA and the flop is 832 and you're facing heavy action? Do you put it all in there?

If you limp with AA and it's raised, are you still drawing?

What happens if you limp-call with AA and the flop comes KJ5 and there's some fast action from the original raiser? If he has AK, could you have still won a monster pot if *you* raised preflop? If he has KK, couldn't you have made a monster pot while you were way ahead?

Your KK hand with 2 others. What if the flop was QJx? Can you put all your money in assuming he's got AQ and not be afraid of AA or QQ or QJ?

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Your strategy is weak/tight and will not maximize profit. You'll win, but not much.

You could probably change gears into this "mode" for reasons of playing with your table image but having as your default strategy wouldn't be most profitable.

-'rilla

So you limp w/ top 3 hands everytime and let the blinds and other limpers in the hand with their trash? Then you miss the K because you only flop a set 11.8% of the time. You bet and get raised by the small blind who limped with T8o and flopped two pair. I gotta think this strategy is less than optimal. Your hand strength edge goes down as more people enter the pot. However, I am not qualified to comment on NL because I don't play it. Just thought I'd throw in my $.02.

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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

So you think you should play passively preflop, hit a hand and win.

Do you believe you will hit a hand enough to win?

Do you think you'll be able to extract money well?

How will you draw when the pot will be so small?

What about hands where you have AA and the flop is 832 and you're facing heavy action? Do you put it all in there?

If you limp with AA and it's raised, are you still drawing?

What happens if you limp-call with AA and the flop comes KJ5 and there's some fast action from the original raiser? If he has AK, could you have still won a monster pot if *you* raised preflop? If he has KK, couldn't you have made a monster pot while you were way ahead?

Your KK hand with 2 others. What if the flop was QJx? Can you put all your money in assuming he's got AQ and not be afraid of AA or QQ or QJ?

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Your strategy is weak/tight and will not maximize profit. You'll win, but not much.

You could probably change gears into this "mode" for reasons of playing with your table image but having as your default strategy wouldn't be most profitable.

-'rilla

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Well my argument for my style is that when you do play AA or KK hard, you usually dont get many callers and you take blinds or a smaller amount. So yes, fold aces on a QJ10 flop. Poker isnt a game about winning small amounts, its a game about hitting your hand and taking as much as possible. People should not constrain themselves to thinking 'hitting a big hand' to be preflop. See the flop, if you like it, take it.

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Originally Posted by journey075

Poker isnt a game about winning small amounts, its a game about hitting your hand and taking as much as possible.

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My great days are defined by my huge pots.

My normal days are defined by a bunch of small pots. Hands where I call a raise with 88 and we take it 4 to a flop and it comes 66T, I pot and take it down. Hands like these accumulate.

-'rilla

Also with your strategy, you have no info about the strength of the other person's hand because you never raised preflop. You are going to lose a lot of pots you should ahve won by not having enough info on your opponent and having to fold your hand.

Yes, when you flop a set of kings or aces after having limped in, players probably won't put you on the hand. They'll also usually have nothing themselves, so it barely even matters what they think you have.

The problem with this strategy is that you simply aren't extracting the value of your hands. When you have the best hand, it is important that you bet (except it's certain rare cases when it isn't necessary) so that you can convert your holdings into profit.

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Originally Posted by journey075

If AK is a drawing hand then the only non-drawing hands are AA KK and perhaps QQ (this does assume you believe AK to be drawing preflop).

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Since when is AK a drawing hand?

JJ is a drawing hand? If so, you ought to fold it.

If you look at these hands as drawing hands, you are too busy playing your own cards to be successful.

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Originally Posted by koolmoe

Since when is AK a drawing hand?

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A-K *is* a drawing hand. You're drawing to an ace or king on the flop. Do you really think A-K is powerful when a bunch of number cards flop?

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Originally Posted by dsaxton

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Originally Posted by koolmoe

Since when is AK a drawing hand?

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A-K *is* a drawing hand. You're drawing to an ace or king on the flop. Do you really think A-K is powerful when a bunch of number cards flop?

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Yes, provided you get to the flop against one or two opponents.

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Originally Posted by koolmoe

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Originally Posted by dsaxton

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Originally Posted by koolmoe

Since when is AK a drawing hand?

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A-K *is* a drawing hand. You're drawing to an ace or king on the flop. Do you really think A-K is powerful when a bunch of number cards flop?

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Yes, provided you get to the flop against one or two opponents.

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...and by raising... not by limping.

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Originally Posted by koolmoe

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Originally Posted by dsaxton

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Originally Posted by koolmoe

Since when is AK a drawing hand?

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A-K *is* a drawing hand. You're drawing to an ace or king on the flop. Do you really think A-K is powerful when a bunch of number cards flop?

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Yes, provided you get to the flop against one or two opponents.

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You know that any lowly pocket pair beats A-K high, right?

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Originally Posted by dsaxton

You know that any lowly pocket pair beats A-K high, right?

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You can represent an overpair easily.

-'rilla

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Originally Posted by dsaxton

You know that any lowly pocket pair beats A-K high, right?

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Condescenion will get you nowhere. If you really want to improve your game, you'll listen to what's being said here.

Incidentally, your reply here highlights exactly what I said earlier. You are playing your cards only, not your opponents'.

Who will be more afraid of the QT5 flop? The preflop raiser with AK or the cold caller holding 66?

There are only two hands that AK is in big trouble against preflop. You should play it as such.

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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

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Originally Posted by dsaxton

You know that any lowly pocket pair beats A-K high, right?

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You can represent an overpair easily.

-'rilla

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I know. But in terms of hand value, A-K is a drawing hand. You can represent an overpair with any two cards.

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Originally Posted by dsaxton

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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

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Originally Posted by dsaxton

You know that any lowly pocket pair beats A-K high, right?

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You can represent an overpair easily.

-'rilla

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I know. But in terms of hand value, A-K is a drawing hand. You can represent an overpair with any two cards.

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But these two are also a favorite against an unpaired hand.

-'rilla

A-K is a drawing hand but if you look at it that way it's the same as A-2

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Originally Posted by koolmoe

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Originally Posted by dsaxton

You know that any lowly pocket pair beats A-K high, right?

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Condescenion will get you nowhere. If you really want to improve your game, you'll listen to what's being said here.

Incidentally, your reply here highlights exactly what I said earlier. You are playing your cards only, not your opponents'.

Who will be more afraid of the QT5 flop? The preflop raiser with AK or the cold caller holding 66?

There are only two hands that AK is in big trouble against preflop. You should play it as such.

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How was I being condescending? I just stated the simple fact that you are on a draw against pocket pairs if you're holding A-K. I'm not sure how that suggests I'm only playing my cards, since I didn't say anything about how the hand should be played. I never said you shouldn't bluff with A-K when you miss.

The reason the player with A-K is less afraid of a Q, 10, 5 flop than a player with 6-6 is because the player with A-K expects to have a lot of outs against a player who may have him/her beaten, whereas the player with 6-6 doesn't. So what?

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Originally Posted by TheAmoeba

A-K is a drawing hand but if you look at it that way it's the same as A-2

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In a way. But, A-K is a much better draw than A-2. I think high card hands can really only be played for value in very short-handed games, perhaps only in one on one games. These are the rare exceptions where I think you may be able to bet a hand like ace high for value on the flop.

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Originally Posted by dsaxton

The reason the player with A-K is less afraid of a Q, 10, 5 flop than a player with 6-6 is because the player with A-K expects to have a lot of outs against a player who may have him/her beaten, whereas the player with 6-6 doesn't. So what?

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No, it's becuase 66 knows he's beat by a Q, a T and the OESD + the overs and he has a hand that won't improve. There are simply too many ways that he loses this hand for him to bet like his pair is the best.

Atleast for me.

When I have AK and that flop I have outs and the aggression. I'm usually coming out smelling like roses.

-'rilla

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Originally Posted by dsaxton

How was I being condescending? I just stated the simple fact that you are on a draw against pocket pairs if you're holding A-K.

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No, you asked me if I realized that AK is behind a lowly pocket pair, as if I were some newb. That is the definition of condescension.

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Originally Posted by dsaxton

I'm not sure how that suggests I'm only playing my cards, since I didn't say anything about how the hand should be played. I never said you shouldn't bluff with A-K when you miss.

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I inferred that you believe it to be a problem that AK is behind a low pocket pair, as if you need to hit your hand to win.

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Originally Posted by dsaxton

The reason the player with A-K is less afraid of a Q, 10, 5 flop than a player with 6-6 is because the player with A-K expects to have a lot of outs against a player who may have him/her beaten, whereas the player with 6-6 doesn't. So what?

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So 66 will have a hard time calling a continuation bet by AK, who is likely to win the hand without improving.

You are either very dense or a troll.

Hands are more likely to be drawing against AK than the other way around. In fact, as I have illustrated above, AK will often have outs that are simply scare cards for its opponents.

Hope that's enough for you. I'm done wasting my energy for your entertainment.

i hope you do realize that this was a thought. this is a VERY passive form of preflop play and with aggression post flop you will be able to take down nice pots.

didnt expect a flame war, calm down guys :wink:.

with high cards on the flop and a limp preflop, if you play aggresively no one can assume you have the near-nuts. itll look like textook bluffing.

i plan on using this technique every once in a while to vary my game. dont do it if you dont want to, it was just a friendly thought.

Yeah, I'm probably just an idiot because I don't consider A-K high to be some rock-solid made hand. Or maybe I'm also a troll because I'm obviously just trying to start a fight.

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Originally Posted by journey075

didnt expect a flame war, calm down guys :wink:.

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Sorry, been reading too much of that other forum lately. No worries.

yeah just wait around for the top 3 hands, then after you accomplish that, just hit your set every single time. Then just take their whole stack without the drawers hitting their straights or flushes. im suprised doyle didnt mention that in his book, its common knowledge.

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Originally Posted by mimmons775

yeah just wait around for the top 3 hands, then after you accomplish that, just hit your set every single time. Then just take their whole stack without the drawers hitting their straights or flushes. im suprised doyle didnt mention that in his book, its common knowledge.

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lol gotta love the friendly part of this forum. its a thought douchebag, when it works it pays off.

im so tired of this discussion, its a holdem strategy forum. people come up with new strategies and people talk about them. to cling onto arcahic measures of poker will never lead to progression.

whatever, im done with this.

i was just playin around, calm down. No need to take it so personal. people use sarcasm on this site all the time and no one ever makes as big of a deal out of it as you did.

point is, there are people here who have made hundreds to thousands of dollars, and you're trying to reinvent the wheel, so to speak.

I give this thread a D-

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Originally Posted by journey075

say control this idea and raise aces like you would 8s. No preflop raises with a top 3 hand, hit your set, and take all the chips at the table. Throw in a few hard raises with suited connectors or lower pockets and youre sure to have a table that cant put you on cards.

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Correct me if i'm wrong, but basically your saying to treat AA like 88 preflop so you can suprise someone with an AAA when your acting like an 888?

Unless your against someone with 999, TTT, QQQ, or KKK they are not going to care if you have 888 or AAA. All they care about is if you have a set.

It might just be me, but I just dont see many hands where 888 is really any weaker than AAA. In fact, I probally would rather 888 most of the time to get paid off by the people with top pair... I'd rather have 888 than than AAA 95% of the time I have AAA. (hitting your set of aces on a flop of A83 will earn you less money than hitting a set of 8's on the same flop)

AA doesnt win most of it's money by hitting a set and becomeing a nut, it wins because it's the best pair, and raiseing it preflop is a money making plan.


The idea of hideing your hand quality is a good one, but thats the wrong

If you want to hide your hands, then raise the same set amount when you raise.

Do a stupid play or two with bad cards, dont always play you best cards badly... Thats not acting like your a bad player, thats being a bad player.

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Originally Posted by journey075

i plan on using this technique every once in a while to vary my game.

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Then it will be implemented perfectly.

-'rilla

The bottom line is you want isolation with your big hands. When your UTG+1 and UTG raises, you want to reraise to isolate. I have no problem with any strategy that sees only one or two others in a hand where you have KK. Drawing hands are called drawing hands because their monetary expectation goes up with more people in. That's just not the case with KK, AA, QQ. We play these hands a certain way because it's mathematically correct to do so. These are not drawing hands because they lose more with more people in. It's just a fact.

I use a % of 80/20 playing AA, KK, QQ aggressive - meaning this, 80% of the time I play them aggressive & 20% I slow leak them. This all depends on the situation of the table (type of players, positioning, etc).

I find that large pairs are better being played aggressive, but more money in the slow leak. Is there a better feeling then calling before the blind and hitting trips on the flop - now you can make some money.

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I find that large pairs are better being played aggressive, but more money in the slow leak. Is there a better feeling then calling before the blind and hitting trips on the flop - now you can make some money

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Your already doing that with your 22's - 99's...

The best feeling is having that 44 with an AJ4 rainbow flop. Watching that AK and AJ raise and reraise thinking they have the best hand.

I just dont see why you would want to play your AA's - QQ's this way when a 22 - 99 would work much better.

What it boils down to is this: AAA makes LESS than 222, and AA makes MORE than 22. Thats why you play pairs like you do.

Use a standard raise to hide your hands power, not skipping a needed raise.

sure, if you're talking about just switching things up, say less than 10% of the time, go for it. but in general bet it. reason being, all sorts of hands will call a raise preflop that are dominated. might as well get some money from them don't you think? most of the time if a set comes you're still getting paid off anyway imo.

One obvious way to win money in a hand is to have the best hand at showdown. One of the best ways to have the best hand at showdown is to get hands that might beat you to fold pre-flop.

When you have AA, what kinds of hands do you want to call you, preflop? You want AK, AQ, KK, QQ, JJ type hands in the pot. Your hand dominates them and it is likely that you will have the best hand at showdown. Further, for hands like AK and AQ, the board can even make them think they hit something and you still have them beat.

When you have AA, what kinds of hands do you NOT want to call you, preflop? Medium suited connectors. They have the best chance of beating an AA. What hand works best against AA? 65s where the suit does not overlap the suit of either Ace. Yes, 65s has the highest chance of beating AA with odds of 3.34:1. Compare that to the odds of KK vs AA, 4.54:1. Compare that to the odds of AK vs AA, 11.26:1. Not only is 65s the most likely hand to crack AA, it has another enormous advantage. It is incredibly easy to fold if the flop misses (unlike KK, AK). So, the 65s hands are not going to call your bets after the flop unless they have a good chance of beating you (or already have you beat).

So, to have the best hand at showdown, it would be wise to bet enough preflop so that only really strong hands call; which, in turn, your AA dominates. With fewer callers, suited connectors in late position are not getting the multiway pot (and the implied odds) that they need to make a call worthwhile.

I love it when other people at my table have AA or KK and I have 22

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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

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Originally Posted by dsaxton

You know that any lowly pocket pair beats A-K high, right?

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You can represent an overpair easily.

-'rilla

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***** Hand History for Game 1774768065 *****
$400 NL Hold'em - Tuesday, March 22, 12:21:00 EDT 2005
Table Table 36530 (Real Money)
Seat 8 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 2: CRANEMANsn ( $304.4 )
Seat 3: pbracke83 ( $524.6 )
Seat 4: M1kall1ca ( $487 )
Seat 5: KidBurly ( $484 )
Seat 6: brewhah ( $328.1 )
Seat 7: Extratopping ( $572.8 )
Seat 8: propokaplaya ( $779.5 )
Seat 9: PokerAubie ( $217.4 )
Seat 10: craze9 ( $402 )
Seat 1: Superpervert ( $357 )
PokerAubie posts small blind [$2].
craze9 posts big blind [$4].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Extratopping [ As Kd ]
>You have options at Table 36662 Table!.
Superpervert folds.
CRANEMANsn folds.
pbracke83 folds.
M1kall1ca folds.
brewhah folds.
Extratopping raises [$15].
propokaplaya calls [$15].
PokerAubie folds.
craze9 folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 2c, 8d, Ts ]
Extratopping bets [$30].
propokaplaya raises [$60].
Extratopping raises [$125].
propokaplaya calls [$95].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 4s ]
Extratopping is all-In [$402.8]
propokaplaya folds.
Extratopping does not show cards.
Extratopping wins $745.8
AA good?
brewhah has left the table.

And in his mind I have an overpair