The spots being the table bully gets you into

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03-28-2005, 07:57 AM
Fnord

The spots being the table bully gets you into

Limper: $227.44
BB: $207.13
Me: $631.95

I had been pounding on these guys pretty hard and have won a couple showdowns with real stinkers when my flop bet got called and it pretty much got checked down. BB is loose/passive and no one has really been playing back at me yet.

One limper to me. I'm on the button with :ac: :8c:

I raise to $8, sb folds, BB calls.

3 to the flop, $23.75 in the pot

:as: :7h: :6s:

checked to me and I bet $20, BB pushes, limper folds, I really want to call here because this bet screams draw, but fold.

What would you do?
03-28-2005, 08:10 AM
Cocco_Bill

I fold here. I am too chicken to make these big calls :)
03-28-2005, 09:56 AM
LeFou

i'm chicken too. if there were even one club out there i might go.
03-28-2005, 10:30 AM
SavX

I fold.. maybe he hit a set?
03-28-2005, 10:34 AM
Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by SavX

I fold.. maybe he hit a set?

Comming from the big blind, I think there is a lower chance of him having a pocket pair here.
03-28-2005, 10:39 AM
ilikeaces86

BB shows 89 spades. Still want to call?
03-28-2005, 10:44 AM
Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilikeaces86

BB shows 89 spades. Still want to call?

You're giving him too much credit comming in from the BB against a known aggro player. I seriously doubt he has both draws.
03-28-2005, 10:47 AM
TylerK

Re: The spots being the table bully gets you into

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

BB is loose/passive

What hands have you seen him call a PFR with? What kinds of hands is he showing down in general? What kinds of hands will he raise the flop with?
03-28-2005, 10:51 AM
Fnord

Re: The spots being the table bully gets you into

Quote:

Originally Posted by TylerK

What hands have you seen him call a PFR with? What kinds of hands is he showing down in general? What kinds of hands will he raise the flop with?

I put him on a pretty wide range here. The table has been calling pre-flop with crap then bailing on the flop. He really hasn't shown any spine up until now...
03-28-2005, 11:24 AM
JeffreyGB

Re: The spots being the table bully gets you into

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

I put him on a pretty wide range here. The table has been calling pre-flop with crap then bailing on the flop. He really hasn't shown any spine up until now...

Any specific reason to think that his spine is unrelated to his cards? Often such a change in behavior indicates good cards to me. I agree with the laydown; he could have one or both draws or even have gotten a sweet BB special and have you out-kicked (unless he'd have reraised preflop, which sounds unlikely).
03-28-2005, 11:37 AM
a500lbgorilla

Quote:

Originally Posted by SavX

I fold.. maybe he hit a set?

Ugh.

Ugh!

UGH!

Just becuase they're pushing does not mean they always have the goods. Drop the weak/tightedness.

He's a known table bully who will raise thin. I'd laugh if he has the set.

-'rilla
03-28-2005, 11:39 AM
TylerK

Re: The spots being the table bully gets you into

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeffreyGB

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

I put him on a pretty wide range here. The table has been calling pre-flop with crap then bailing on the flop. He really hasn't shown any spine up until now...

Any specific reason to think that his spine is unrelated to his cards? Often such a change in behavior indicates good cards to me. I agree with the laydown; he could have one or both draws or even have gotten a sweet BB special and have you out-kicked (unless he'd have reraised preflop, which sounds unlikely).

I agree. Either he has you outkicked with semi-crap, or his real crap just turned into not-crap.

When the fish start raising it's usually time to get out of the way.
03-28-2005, 11:39 AM
Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

He's a known table bully who will raise thin. I'd laugh if he has the set.

Ummm... I'm the table bully...
03-28-2005, 11:40 AM
a500lbgorilla

Oh. Woopsy

-'rilla
03-28-2005, 01:16 PM
storm75m

he probably just has ace rag, and is tired of your crap and wants to show some strenght... could've maybe hit two pair... When you say you're the bully, are you pretty much raising almost everything pre-flop? People tend to break down at some point against these types of players (i know I have several times) and just decide to push with a mediocre hand.
03-28-2005, 01:24 PM
elipsesjeff

That looks like an easy fold to me. Get him next time when you have the goods.
03-28-2005, 05:51 PM
face

Let me begin by saying I'm a rank beginner, so I might be hugely off base here, but I don't understand why his bet screams draw here. If you were in the BB and had pocket 7s or 6s, and you knew the button raiser was the table bully, wouldn't you play exactly the same way preflop hoping to cash on his overaggression if you hit your set? Also, if this guy is weak/passive, why do you think he would all of a sudden agg up with a spade draw here? Of course, it is possible that he has a lower ace or suited paint, or even the OESD/flush draw proposed above, and in the first case you're a 65/35 favorite and in the second you're a slight dog. Having been on both sides of the bully dichotomy, I am always very wary (and conversely very eager when bullied) of calling a huge checkraise from a weak/tight -- especially when I have been seen calling down big raises with moderate/strong holdings -- unless I have a really strong hand. As the bully, you are the prime target of everyone at the table. Although this might mean people are more likely to bluff at you, they are also much more likely to camp and take you down for a huge pot with the nuts. I think a big part of sucessfully playing the bully is to recognize both possibilities, and to make exactly this kind of laydown in marginal situations, especially when it's the first big show of aggression by another player at the table. You pick up enough small pots that you can afford to pay off a bluff/semi-bluff here anyway.
03-28-2005, 06:00 PM
mimmons775

fold
03-28-2005, 07:16 PM
Spandrel

I think his bet screams pocket A-6 or A-7 with two pair on the flop. Most likely, he will take that two pair to his grave.
03-28-2005, 07:39 PM
a500lbgorilla

Quote:

Originally Posted by mimmons775

fold

Why?

'rilla
03-28-2005, 07:40 PM
a500lbgorilla

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spandrel

I think his bet screams pocket A-6 or A-7 with two pair on the flop. Most likely, he will take that two pair to his grave.

Especially against a table bully.

But I don't think it quite screams two pair.

Against a super aggro opp, most people will just call here and raise the turn.

With a straight or flush draw, he's definitly taking the big semi-bluff and trying to show you that you need to stop betting.

-'rilla
03-28-2005, 11:32 PM
Ayce

Good fold.

You are either at a small advantage or are a big dog, you do the math.

I am most often the person sitting like the BB and rolling over until I hit. A good LAG folds, a bad one calls.
03-29-2005, 12:31 AM
EddieBoy

I also say fold. Im almost certain u'r outkicked to his AJ or AT, if not, he's hit the 2 pair. I'd think it rare for the BB to checkraise w/out SOME kind of hand, especially against the bully.. Hell, as loose as the table is being described, he coulda called ther raise at a "bb discount" with 67suited......
03-29-2005, 01:23 AM
Admerylous

Quote:

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Against a super aggro opp, most people will just call here and raise the turn.

I am not so sure of that. Against the table bully a lot of people want to stand up for themselves as soon as they get a moderate piece and turn the aggression onto them. I would say most people hoping to extract the most out of a super aggro opp will just call and raise over on the turn, but when upset by a table bully I tend to see people get extremely aggressive when they have the opportunity.
03-29-2005, 01:29 AM
|~|ypermegachi

it's possible they have a weaker ace....is a raise out of the question?
03-29-2005, 01:32 AM
Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by hypermegachi

it's possible they have a weaker ace....is a raise out of the question?

He pushed, it's a call or fold.
03-29-2005, 01:38 AM
|~|ypermegachi

bleh, i read it as they bet $20, not you....it's late and i need sleep!
i think it's the easiest fold ever then. even if they are buying the pot, it's too expensive to find out what they have. plus it's from a fish. fish don't fight back...they call.
03-30-2005, 07:17 AM
lonnie

Fnord, you sound like you are on a limit game and the guy just reraised you one more big bet. How you can even contemplate a call in this spot is beyond me. Anything he is reraising you all in with, which is probably ~180 dollar call for you, is way better than what you are holding.

Your preflop raise was a small mistake. You bet the flop as if you were holding AK or AQ. Now you get raised AI---you gotta cut your losses on this crappy hand and move on.

Now, what would you do if you are holding AK in that spot? Do you call then? I'm all about pushing all in with a hand like AK with that board, but calling someone else's is a totally different situation. No fold equity in calling.
03-30-2005, 08:28 AM
koolmoe

This looks like "The Hammer" as discussed by Dan Harrington in Harrington on Holdem. I'd give him credit for an Ace at least. Thing is, with the 7 and 6 on the flop, your odds of having him outkicked go down by 33%. A6 - AJ seem like reasonable possibilities, all of which are bad for you.

I'd take a deep breath, realize there are better spots to get my stack in, and fold.
03-30-2005, 11:08 AM
lonnie

Fnord, the other side of this 'should I call' scenario. Don't do what my opp did.

Pacific $100 NL

BB - 93.00
lhoney2 - 112.00
CO - 93.00

I limp :8c: :8s: from UTG.

Total of 6 players limp to the flop.

Flop:

:8h: :as: :2s:

I flop the set, but this is a trouble board, I need to play this fast and hopefully get someone to make a BIG mistake here. SB and BB check to me. This is going to be an action flop, and I anticipate getting raised, as two of the LP players have been quite aggro.

I bet out 5.00 into a 5.70 pot...this is begging to get raised.

CO flat calls, and BB makes it 20

I got check raised! Exactly what I wanted. This sucker now has 21 dollars invested in the pot on what I presume to either be a somewhat dry Ace or a flush draw.

I push all-in and make it 117 to go...CO promptly folds. My mark thinks for a few seconds then call off the rest of his stack (67.40). If he is on the flush draw, he is paying way too much for it. No matter the results, I got all of his money in on an inferior hand.

Turn and river inocuous:

:3c: :4c:

BB shows:

:ac: :9h:

lhoney2 wins pots, $182

Don't be THAT guy Fnord!!
03-30-2005, 12:07 PM
ensign_lee

Yeah. Being table bully can really bite you in the ass.

I raised it up with K 10 and the other guy had AK
We both hit a king.

I played it like a set because he was showing strength, but not too much strength...and promptly dumped $150 in a $200 NL game... :?
03-30-2005, 04:06 PM
lolzzz_321

Quote:

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

That looks like an easy fold to me. Get him next time when you have the goods.

agr33t :D
03-30-2005, 04:12 PM

Re: The spots being the table bully gets you into

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

BB is loose/passive

That is the very reason I fold here.

You can make a pretty good assumption that he must have something (relatively) good if he is actually playing back at you big time.

This is also a VERY tight edge to be pushing, I wait for a better spot here.
03-31-2005, 05:55 AM
Greedo017

i just don't see enough hands that you're beating here. you might have him beat, its not unreasonable to think you do, but to me that would be a senseless risk. i fold.