I just can't win at Party's NL25

I mostly play at Absolute Poker because of all their reload bonuses. I play the NL25 and NL50 tables. After app. 6000 hands, I'm averaging a little over 15BB/100, which I believe is quite good at AP.

I also play for the reload bonuses at Party and I can't win a penny there. I'm only winning 4BB/100, so I basically just win the bonuses. I however have only played 2500 hands.

My style of play is the same at both site. I'm tight preflop, and I play most of my hands agressively (raising preflop and on the flop, exept for low pocket pairs that I like to slowplay if I hit trips). I just seem to always get outdrawn at Party. If I have QQ, a 4-5BB raises just won't get rid of the fishes playing A3off, while a bigger raise won't be called. I don't like to chase hands, so most of the pots I lose is when I raise big with the best hand, and get rivered by someone holding a trash hand.

So I would like to know if some of you have experienced something similar and if you adopt a different style of play at Party. I know I'm a good player and that I should be able to make money at this site because the players are horrible.

6000 hands is not nearly enough to know your win rate. You should play at least 10x that to get a good idea.

Can't speak for the 25's at AP but the 50 and 200 are tough. They have a loyal player base of regulars who are all fairly decent players. IMO Absolute is a tougher nut to crack than Party. Although, I have not played in a month on Party.

It was said above, but you have not played a ton of hands and it may just be a short term downswing. Post a couple HH's to be sure.

You're probably just running bad. NL should give you enough weapons to destroy the chasers if you adapt.

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I havent played on absolute yet but I intend to. The play that works best on party(and everywhere else, too) depends greatly what the players are like. Be the opposite that other players are! Sometimes you will find loose maniacs and all you have to do is camp and wait for big hands, and play those suited connectors when you have position. But unfortunately sometimes the game seems to be way to weak/tight this style to work and then it is just best to change the table IMO. If you hit get KK, raise 4bb and nobody calls that isnt good either, getting 35snt from the blinds just isnt good. I havent played that much ring lately but I think that the players on party are getting better and even nl50 starts to be descent.

I have to disagree with Rippy here. I think that loosing up the starting hand requirements for _a new player_ is the most sure recipe for disaster. Once we learn to play better after the flop loosening up might be a good thing but not before.

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Originally Posted by Ripptyde

nothing like raising pre flop with 5/7os and getting reraised...calling the reraise and flopping K/6/9....checking....calling the flop bet by Mister King and hitting a 8 on the turn...its pure poetry and takes down a HUGE pot

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For this to be correct mathematicaly both players in the hand need pretty fucking large stacks, because you need great implied odds. You're also hoping that the board doesn't pair or show three of a suit for two reasons. One the off chance it gives the other guy a better hand than a straight and two it will be at least a little but harder to extract value from your straight if he's worried about trips or a flush. Again this affects your implied odds, so you need to be playing with a large stack and against a large stack.

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Originally Posted by Ripptyde

thats nonsense

if you want to see a winning cash game player...watch Michael1123 or a guy who plays in the 10/20 rooms on Stars 'HOLLINGGOL'

these guys play aggressive position poker with rags and win big money

Ive watched Michael play in the ring on Stars and he plays at LEAST 40% of his starting hands

campers die in the ring and get cracked more often than not when they do catch a good starting hand...either that or just take down a small pot after they catch the hand they waited for for 3 orbits

take my word for it.....loosening up with your starting hands playing them in position is the only way to play successful cash game poker

nothing like raising pre flop with 5/7os and getting reraised...calling the reraise and flopping K/6/9....checking....calling the flop bet by Mister King and hitting a 8 on the turn...its pure poetry and takes down a HUGE pot

waiting for A/K...raising and catching a King on the flop is going to yield only a small pot ..if that. You have to look for backdoor hands in order to take down large pots in the ring....plain and simple....and I think Michael would agree with me on this one

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We're tallkin about Party 25 NL. I do agree that these strategies have a place, but at higher stakes.

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Originally Posted by Ripptyde

thats nonsense

if you want to see a winning cash game player...watch Michael1123 or a guy who plays in the 10/20 rooms on Stars 'HOLLINGGOL'

these guys play aggressive position poker with rags and win big money

Ive watched Michael play in the ring on Stars and he plays at LEAST 40% of his starting hands

campers die in the ring and get cracked more often than not when they do catch a good starting hand...either that or just take down a small pot after they catch the hand they waited for for 3 orbits

take my word for it.....loosening up with your starting hands playing them in position is the only way to play successful cash game poker

nothing like raising pre flop with 5/7os and getting reraised...calling the reraise and flopping K/6/9....checking....calling the flop bet by Mister King and hitting a 8 on the turn...its pure poetry and takes down a HUGE pot

waiting for A/K...raising and catching a King on the flop is going to yield only a small pot ..if that. You have to look for backdoor hands in order to take down large pots in the ring....plain and simple....and I think Michael would agree with me on this one

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Fast play requires great skill. It's much easier for a new player to learn how to become a good tight aggressive than to play the way you suggest. I think that you should thoroughly learn how to be a successful carbon-copy sklansky tag before you try to play like Michael. I seem to remember that Michael use to be very rockish.

I would wager that you could make more money at the 25nl tables playing 4-8 tables tag then trying to play them fast. To play the way you suggest you would need good knowlege of the players around you plus greater concentration. I think you would need to play less tables and you would make less money.

Party NL25 can be bullied. Its easy. Rippy is right. Loosen up, or you will suck. Thats the end of it.

If everyone at your table is going AI every other hand, than by all means Camp, or better yet, leave that table, and go find some rocks that you can Tilt. I posted a HH earlier today of me Min-raising guys out of hands. Not pushing, not shoving, not betting the pot. These guys were folding to my .25 raises. In fact, the one time I got Ace King, i only took down .85 and the biggest pot I won was with some backdoor 5 7 offsuit shit.

Rip knows what he is talking about, Ring is all about suprising them a few times, and pushing them out many times. Check Raise with nothing. Bet Bet Bet. And by all means, see more than your share of flops.

A raise from a guy who hasnt played in 3 orbits SCREAMS "I got Paint, and dont know what to do with it" You can take my BB once every three orbits. I will work everyone elses stack untill I can start pushing back at your Pocket Pair, and you better hope you hit the flop, because it will cost you your whole stack to see that river card, and even if you do, I will have backdoored my Rick James for at least 2 pair, and you lose anyway. Good Night, see ya later, and dont quit your day job

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Originally Posted by The_Cheat

Party NL25 can be bullied. Its easy. Rippy is right. Loosen up, or you will suck. Thats the end of it.

If everyone at your table is going AI every other hand, than by all means Camp, or better yet, leave that table, and go find some rocks that you can Tilt. I posted a HH earlier today of me Min-raising guys out of hands. Not pushing, not shoving, not betting the pot. These guys were folding to my .25 raises. In fact, the one time I got Ace King, i only took down .85 and the biggest pot I won was with some backdoor 5 7 offsuit shit.

Rip knows what he is talking about, Ring is all about suprising them a few times, and pushing them out many times. Check Raise with nothing. Bet Bet Bet. And by all means, see more than your share of flops.

A raise from a guy who hasnt played in 3 orbits SCREAMS "I got Paint, and dont know what to do with it" You can take my BB once every three orbits. I will work everyone elses stack untill I can start pushing back at your Pocket Pair, and you better hope you hit the flop, because it will cost you your whole stack to see that river card, and even if you do, I will have backdoored my Rick James for at least 2 pair, and you lose anyway. Good Night, see ya later, and dont quit your day job

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It's a good thing you only play NL25. but I guess that's the point. People catch on. You can't just go DO these things. You have to do them with READS. You have to have an idea where your opponent is. Because after awhile he'll figure out what kind of cards you need to amke these move (none) and you'll be in trouble.

We have michael and Ripptydewho see the flop 40% and then we have mr aces who sees less than 15% of the flops and is still doing pretty good..

Rippy we have a big field of people who just camp nl25 or nl50 succesfully. For a novice it is a good way to get familiar with the game but with more experience and bigger stakes you sort of have to play more hands. But once again I want to say that for a novice playing 40% of the hands is the most secure way of losing the money. world is full of examples..

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Originally Posted by Pingviini

We have michael and Ripptydewho see the flop 40% and then we have mr aces who sees less than 15% of the flops and is still doing pretty good..

Rippy we have a big field of people who just camp nl25 or nl50 succesfully. For a novice it is a good way to get familiar with the game but with more experience and bigger stakes you sort of have to play more hands. But once again I want to say that for a novice playing 40% of the hands is the most secure way of losing the money. world is full of examples..

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People are scared of aggression and raises in a cash game. I am playing the 25 and 50NL on party and am seeing 40% of the flops. I've watched rippy and michael play and it does work, I'm doing it myself. You can camp and probably make money (thats how I started) but not nearly as much money as you could if you played more hands more aggressively.

Ive watched Michael play at Stars and believe me it really does work! Though as someone mentioned, you need good knowlege of the players around you and very good concentration to pull it off.

I tend to agree with both sides of this argument. After playing months of absolutely break-even poker I found that loosening up my starting hands has put me over the top in a big way.

That being said though, I don't think I would have been a profitable poker player had I been playing this "LAggy" all along. I see a lot of flops and win a lot of small pots wich make up for the pots I let go because i missed the flop. But when I do hit the flop with a big hand or a big draw I win a monster pot that would have previously been small.

If I had tried this when I started out I wouldn't have been able to play the player as well as I do now and take down the necessary pots to make this play profitable.

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Originally Posted by jobupoker

I see a lot of flops and win a lot of small pots wich make up for the pots I let go because i missed the flop.

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Missing the flop means nothing. Like I said, people are afraid of aggression and raises in cash games. Let me see if I can find a hand from this morning.

Notice I missed the flop with no raises to me. The cards don't matter at this point. I missed the flop but who cares, I just represent that I hit it and get my opponent off his hand. You can't do this all the time. You need to have position and you need to know your opponent. Also make sure if you are doing this your opponent has money otherwise a shortstack will often push.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.5 BB (6 max, 5 handed) converter

UTG ($37.95)
MP ($47.15)
Hero ($52.95)
SB ($71.65)
BB ($27.91)

Preflop: Hero is Button with :5c:, :7s:.
1 fold, MP calls $0.50, Hero raises to $3, 1 fold, BB calls $2.50, MP calls $2.50.

Flop: ($9.25) :ah:, :3s:, :8h: (3 players)
BB checks, MP checks, Hero bets $7, BB folds, MP calls $7.

Turn: ($23.25) :3d: (2 players)
MP checks, Hero bets $15, MP folds.

Final Pot: $38.25

Results in white below:
No showdown. Hero wins $38.25.

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Missing the flop means nothing.

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I agree. Perhaps I wasn't clear. If I'm in a multiway pot with 78s and the flop comes AQJ and there is heavy raising I'm going to let this go. I've found that there are times you just can't will the pot into your corner. :)

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Originally Posted by jobupoker

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Missing the flop means nothing.

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I agree. Perhaps I wasn't clear. If I'm in a multiway pot with 78s and the flop comes AQJ and there is heavy raising I'm going to let this go. I've found that there are times you just can't will the pot into your corner. :)

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Ok. You made it sound as if you were just letting your hands go when you missed the flop. I understand what you are saying now.

OK les, that's great, and I do it too often times. But what about the times they HAVE an A and keep calling. Then you are screwed out of your buy in.

heh reraise5823, you make so much "extra" money this way, it doesnt matter if you lose a bunch of small pots, your big hands get PAID off. You can afford to make mistakes and take bad odds with this style of play

I left a 25 NL table with $140 only after playing for an hour. I gave away about $15-20 in raises, but obviously profited after I busted 6 guys at the table.

I think it's good for a player to start out playing tight and somewhat passive, and build up an aggressive and looser game. Playing tight, conservative poker gives you time to develop reads and learn pot odds inside and out. Then as you go along and become very familiar with all of that, you can start playing crazier and make the necessary adjustments as you go.

Here's what I mean - a new guy might raise pre-flop with that 57o and miss, and just keep slamming the pot with raises because he thinks aggression is good. He doesn't pick up the vibe that his opponent has a set and is gladly accepting his money. Or he doesn't realize the other guy is kind of a fish who has second pair with no kicker and will call down because he has no idea what the aggressive player is repping. You can throw a lot of money away when you're new to poker and just know to "play aggressive." It takes some instincts for the game (and understanding of position play, making reads, etc) to be a profitable loose/aggressive player - and that comes with experience. I play with plenty of guys that are pretty new to poker, and a lot of them are LAggy... and their bankroll is like a rollercoaster. Up and down. They win huge sometimes, they lose huge sometimes.

When it comes to you Rippy, I think some of the ideas you advocate on here are really dangerous for people who don't know what they're doing. The numerous hands where you push all in on someone demonstrating a lot of power pre-flop, and they call with a much better hand, but you suck out anyway - well, that's hilarious reading (especially their comments afterward), but it's not a money-making tactic and you know it. It's only worth something if they buy back in a couple more times and donate it to you on heavy tilt. And then there's this:

"nothing like raising pre flop with 5/7os and getting reraised...calling the reraise and flopping K/6/9....checking....calling the flop bet by Mister King and hitting a 8 on the turn...its pure poetry and takes down a HUGE pot"

I understand what you're saying, but this is exactly the kind of hand where more detailed analysis is definitely necessary. Calling re-raises with crap and chasing gutshot draws is how most people lose money, not make it. A new player might read this and think it's a good idea to push all in on his next few gutshots. Or just call any flop bet regardless of how much he has left, and how much his opponent has left. Frankly, if your goal is making money at poker, this stuff has to come up at some point. If your only goal is pissing off other players, you'll do it this way - and it will be "poetry" for sure - but it'll cost you.

What I like about your style is the constant aggression, constant attacking of pots against weaker players. That's good & it comes straight from Brunson, basically. Every player who wants to be good at this game needs to learn to do that at least sometimes, and needs to understand that even if he won't do it himself, other players will, and it requires adjustments in your game if you want to keep up with them.

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Originally Posted by RERAISE5823

OK les, that's great, and I do it too often times. But what about the times they HAVE an A and keep calling. Then you are screwed out of your buy in.

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That is where position and knowing your opponents come into play. I knew he wasn't strong because he has deomonstrated he would raise with a strong Ace. He very well may have had a weak ace but I knew he wouldn't call with it.

Here's an example of what I mean. I've posted some pretty aggressive hands on FTR before. On this one I raised in late position with crap just to steal, or hopefully to take one or two guys to the flop and THEN steal. On this hand, I let it go after the first bet from someone else. No raise from me whatsoever. Why? Because I had been sitting & watching these guys, and I knew they were passive - there was no reason one of them would open without a very solid hand. There was no point staying in and hoping to suck out.

This is the kind of thing a new player is not likely to understand - that sometimes you have to let a hand go, even though you were the aggressor initially.

***** Hand History for Game 1950641814 *****
$25 NL Hold'em - Monday, April 25, 14:46:19 EDT 2005
Table Table 36570 (Real Money)
Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: alan_e22 ( $27.15 )
Seat 2: LateLate ( $35.35 )
Seat 5: deep7 ( $2.9 )
Seat 9: strongbowyum ( $22.15 )
Seat 3: stressball10 ( $33.15 )
Seat 10: Squbb ( $59.75 )
Seat 6: VTR14 ( $24.75 )
Seat 4: str8ryder ( $23.75 )
Seat 8: unitking ( $8.75 )
Seat 7: Wally_2 ( $25 )
deep7 posts small blind [$0.1].
VTR14 posts big blind [$0.25].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to stressball10 [ Ts 7h ]
unitking calls [$0.25].
strongbowyum folds.
Squbb folds.
alan_e22 calls [$0.25].
LateLate folds.
stressball10 raises [$1].
str8ryder folds.
deep7 folds.
VTR14 folds.
unitking calls [$0.75].
alan_e22 calls [$0.75].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Kd, Jh, Th ]
unitking checks.
alan_e22 bets [$3].
stressball10 folds.
unitking is all-In [$7.75]
alan_e22 calls [$4.75].
** Dealing Turn ** [ Qc ]
** Dealing River ** [ 2c ]
alan_e22 shows [ Kh, Td ] two pairs, kings and tens.
unitking shows [ Qd, Kc ] two pairs, kings and queens.
unitking wins $17.95 from the main pot with two pairs, kings and queens.

Based on the 40% flop rate, I guess you all are going at least to the flop with so-called "bad" hands 15% of the time or so? Maybe half of those get a flop you can work with (either good for your hand or rags)?

thats exactly the type of hand I'm talking about Dale. I think it's highly overlooked when people talk about good play.

Jamming on the gas is easy to do, it's letting off the gas and slamming on the brakes that make this play profitable. What's loosing $1 when you've been taking 75 cents 5 out of the last 15 hands. You're playing with other peoples money at this point just waiting to hit big and get paid off.

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Originally Posted by Vlad

Based on the 40% flop rate, I guess you all are going at least to the flop with so-called "bad" hands 15% of the time or so? Maybe half of those get a flop you can work with (either good for your hand or rags)?

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It's not about 'good' or 'bad' hands. Its all about good or bad situations. At times the cards don't matter.

I think everybody should raise every unraised pot on the button or one off the button, and follow it with a continuation bet on the flop. It really opens your eyes to how little the cards matter in some curcumstances. sometimes they matter a whole lot, but late with no aggression you can take a lot of money away from people.

losing a stack or four to people who actualy have cards sucks, but i don't know any other way to instill the nessesary fear into a poker newb.

See the whole board. look at position. look at stack sizes. look at how brave people are. look at your cards. take all of that into acount when deciding to raise or fold.

If you're having trouble with the cards, play a few thousand hands of limit. you'll learn what works and what dosn't because you get to see lots of showdowns. then, kick back over to NL.

if you are averaging 15BB/100 at absolute and only 4BB/100 at party there is a very simple answer... PLAY MORE AT ABSOLUTE AND STOP PLAYING AT PARTY!! haha ive found im the same way... i can crack Full Tilt all the time but whenever i try to play at party i barely break even.. so screw it i just stick with what works

Party just gave me $15. I turned it to 50 and cashed it out. I'll take what Party gives me, but I don't put anything into it.

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Originally Posted by The_Cheat

Party NL25 can be bullied. Its easy. Rippy is right. Loosen up, or you will suck. Thats the end of it.

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you don't have to be loose to win money. I think I win more money when I'm playing tight than loose, because bullying at low level is just so prone to trapping. People slow play a pair dude.

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Originally Posted by missmisery

I just seem to always get outdrawn at Party. If I have QQ, a 4-5BB raises just won't get rid of the fishes playing A3off, while a bigger raise won't be called.

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well, you can't have it both ways, so exactly which result are you hoping for?? personally i am happy to steal the blinds and limps with QQ. it is an extremely vulnerable hand and i'd rather not see the flop, knowing that any ace there sinks me.

with regard to playing your position with rags, i agree 100%. i tried the $25 NL for the first time last night and played something like 40% of my hands. i also won about 80% of the hands i played through sheer aggression holding unimproved cards. it was incredibly liberating for a guy like me who usually plays only 20% of my hands at the limit tables. yes the sample size n=1 but i'm just saying, party $25 NL is clearly beatable.

ChezJ

I played on the full ring games last night (50nl) and half the tables that I played at had 32% VPIP percentages. 3 tables that I played at had 25% or less. These tables are full of bonus whores that are mult-tabling and not paying attention. They are waiting for their AA or Ak. You can ramp up the aggression and VPIP and steal from these guys all day. They are waiting for their monsters and are going to fold to you until they get it.

[/quote]


you don't have to be loose to win money. I think I win more money when I'm playing tight than loose, because bullying at low level is just so prone to trapping. People slow play a pair dude.[/quote]

ROTFL yeah a guy slowed played his A8 os let me hit my flush and then realised the danger he is in and shoved everything hoping i would poop my pants and lose my cards under the table lol. party 25nl is ridiculous at times.

but regarding this topic i think tag is the way to go. sure u get outdrawn but at least u r making em pay for it. however you should learn to play rip style eventually when u go to the higher limits this is how everyone plays. but u need the tag foundation in order to play like this. sure u can start off three betting suited connectors and bet out at your wrap draw on the flop but without the ability to understand what kinda players you are playing against and unable to learn to cut the hand you could end up being badly burned.

aaaa

wow dude that is the most eye-opening chart i've seen on FTR. THANK YOU for posting it. maybe you should put it into a separate thread and sticky-ify it.

Thanks for that graph, it gets across so many points at once I don't know what to do with myself! At least that beast is pointed in the right direction :cool:

Nice work.

:lol:

Nice sarcasm guys...

I'll take it away as it's seemingly so inappropriate..

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Originally Posted by Pingviini

We have michael and Ripptydewho see the flop 40% and then we have mr aces who sees less than 15% of the flops and is still doing pretty good..

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I am up a considerable amount in NL ring cash games and I have a VPIP of 15.6% in all my ring games combined. There are ways to use different table images to your advantage. Looser players use their loose image to get them payed off on their big hands while I use my tight image to steal bigger pots as people see me as a rock. I think there are many ways you can win at NL ring and that is the beauty of the game. You cant come out and say this style of play is the best or this one is. To each his own......

I'd like to see a full hand history of a loose aggressive player at a NL25 sometime.

les or one of the other guys that play this way pls send.

i occasionally get away with a nice bluff, but a lot of the time i'm getting called down by the middle pair calling station.

I'm talking NL25 too

dude i wasn't being sarcastic, i really thought that chart was educational!!! please repost it!!

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Originally Posted by ChezJ

dude i wasn't being sarcastic, i really thought that chart was educational!!! please repost it!!

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I was serious, too, Cocco_Bill. Put that bitch back up!

:lol:

I'm not putting it back up, but if you want make a graf of your own, you can get the tool for it here http://www.pokertracker.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4226

The value of it is to get a good picture of your own progress and winnings and not other peoples. I just wanted to point out that the variance in the game is bigger than probably most people realise.

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Originally Posted by ChezJ

wow dude that is the most eye-opening chart i've seen on FTR. THANK YOU for posting it. maybe you should put it into a separate thread and sticky-ify it.

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... And now the rest of us are wondering what "the most eye-opening chart" looks like. Can you just post it back up? Now I'm curious.

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Originally Posted by ilikeaces86

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Originally Posted by Pingviini

We have michael and Ripptydewho see the flop 40% and then we have mr aces who sees less than 15% of the flops and is still doing pretty good..

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I am up a considerable amount in NL ring cash games and I have a VPIP of 15.6% in all my ring games combined. There are ways to use different table images to your advantage. Looser players use their loose image to get them payed off on their big hands while I use my tight image to steal bigger pots as people see me as a rock. I think there are many ways you can win at NL ring and that is the beauty of the game. You cant come out and say this style of play is the best or this one is. To each his own......

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I play rather tight in full ring games as well. I find that its only profitable to try to steal a pot from someone with a small VPIP. What do you take into account when you are considering stealing a pot from someone, IlikeAces?

Ive loosened up a lot lately, and its been very swingy. I need to work on some things. Making money is fun either way, but its more fun playing a lot of hands and pissing people off without ever saying a word.