River, river, weeeh

#Game No : 1999242177
***** Hand History for Game 1999242177 *****
$400 PL Hold'em - Wednesday, May 04, 18:45:19 EDT 2005
Table Table 36992 (Real Money)
Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 1: pgbrian23 ( $405 )
Seat 2: littlebooty ( $389.4 )
Seat 3: ShawnFogelma ( $318.5 )
Seat 4: whiffleball ( $791.9 )
Seat 5: DoingMyNails ( $400 )
Seat 7: cubanacan ( $738.3 )
Seat 6: Capt_Mo_Man ( $399.5 )
Seat 10: Jim_Please ( $388 )
Seat 9: Nacene ( $304 )
Jim_Please posts small blind [$2].
pgbrian23 posts big blind [$4].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Nacene [ 7h 7c ]
littlebooty calls [$4].
ShawnFogelma raises [$8].
whiffleball folds.
DoingMyNails folds.
Capt_Mo_Man folds.
cubanacan folds.
Nacene calls [$8].
>You have options at Table 36843 Table!.
Jim_Please folds.
pgbrian23 calls [$4].
littlebooty calls [$4].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 5s, 4s, 4c ]
>You have options at Table 36843 Table!.
pgbrian23 checks.
littlebooty checks.
ShawnFogelma bets [$10].
cha_turbo has joined the table.
Nacene raises [$30].
pgbrian23 folds.
littlebooty folds.
ShawnFogelma calls [$20].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 4d ]
>You have options at Table 36843 Table!.
ShawnFogelma checks.
Nacene bets [$50].
ShawnFogelma calls [$50].
** Dealing River ** [ Qc ]
ShawnFogelma checks.
Nacene bets [$75].
ShawnFogelma raises [$150].
Nacene calls [$75].
ShawnFogelma shows [ Kd, Qh ] a full house, Fours full of queens.
Nacene doesn't show [ 7h, 7c ] a full house, Fours full of sevens.
ShawnFogelma wins $491 from the main pot with a full house, Fours full of queens.
Game #1999248776 starts.


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This guy calls down with most anything and since I had the overpair here, I figured he might have a 5...or an overpair even bigger than mine. I bet $50 on the turn because I knew if he raised me, I'd be beat. I didn't want to just take the pot down at the turn. I wanted a little bit mroe out of him.
But he rivered his queens...

Bad luck? Bad play?

Yes it was bad luck, but you could probably argue that it was also misplayed; both by you and your crappy opponent.

I only say misplayed in the context of my style of play. I'm not neccessarily saying that it was EV-'ve to try and suck more $$ out of him the way you did with your 1/2 pot size turn bet. I'm just saying that I'd rather take the lower variance, lower risk play over the high risk, higher variance play you made.

On the turn you obviously figured out that you had the best hand, but you should also recognize that it's very vulnerable to anyone pairing up just one over-card to your 7s. Personally, I'd prefer to make a pot size bet or a little bigger on the turn and take down the money already in the pot than to risk it and try to milk him for more. He made a mistake by calling your $50 bet on the turn (you offered him about 3:1 ($50 to call into a $94+$50 pot) on his money and his 6-outs draw odds weren't that good), but if I were you, I'd either knock him right out of the hand with a big bet that he just can't call, or make him make an even bigger mistake by getting him to call an even bigger bet if he's just no going to let go of his hand.

IMHO, Here's how big his mistakes were:

o He raised before the flop, which seems to have emotionally tied him to the pot (this is a common mistake I see all the time). These people seem to feel that if they raise before the flop, they are somehow entitled to win the pot. He should have known he was beat and mucked his frikin' hand.

o If he puts you on a 4, he's way behind. If he puts you on a 5, pocket 5s or any pocket pair he's way behind. He's either an idiot, or he truly felt that you were bluffing with something worse than his King high.

o He's calling your $50 bet into a $94 pot on the turn for what purpose? (that means the pot was offering him just under 3:1, whereas a 6 outer with one card to come requires over 6.5:1 to be profitable).
If he thought he was ahead with K high, then he should have raised you on the Turn; a clear fold or raise situation if you ask me. Unless, he was trying to get you to 'bluff off' more money to him? Maybe, but does he really have any legitimate reasons to think this is the case? The only other line of reasoning (that's a poor term for something that isn't reasonable at all ;) )is that he's hoping to hit his K or Q on the river (6 outs), and has good evidence that he isn't drawing dead already. However, he didn't have the right odds to make this draw so he should have folded. It was an EASY fold whether your turn bet was $50 or more, so yes he got lucky. However, to some extent you gave him the chance to get lucky by not betting even more on the turn.

Everything went fine untill the river. I like you coming out and betting but once he raises, even if it is only the min raise you gotta fold. What do you think you can beat here? you know if he is bluffing he will do more then minimum raise. when he is calling all along you have to think he has a PP wich will certainly be bigger then yours or caught on the river like he did. I know it was only the minimum but save those bets buddy!

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Originally Posted by Grand_MasterB

Everything went fine untill the river. I like you coming out and betting but once he raises, even if it is only the min raise you gotta fold. What do you think you can beat here? you know if he is bluffing he will do more then minimum raise. when he is calling all along you have to think he has a PP wich will certainly be bigger then yours or caught on the river like he did. I know it was only the minimum but save those bets buddy!

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the pot was big enough to call this

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Originally Posted by ender555

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Originally Posted by Grand_MasterB

Everything went fine untill the river. I like you coming out and betting but once he raises, even if it is only the min raise you gotta fold. What do you think you can beat here? you know if he is bluffing he will do more then minimum raise. when he is calling all along you have to think he has a PP wich will certainly be bigger then yours or caught on the river like he did. I know it was only the minimum but save those bets buddy!

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the pot was big enough to call this

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I dissagree...once again ill state... what do you think his hand can beat at this point?

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Originally Posted by Grand_MasterB

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Originally Posted by ender555

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Originally Posted by Grand_MasterB

Everything went fine untill the river. I like you coming out and betting but once he raises, even if it is only the min raise you gotta fold. What do you think you can beat here? you know if he is bluffing he will do more then minimum raise. when he is calling all along you have to think he has a PP wich will certainly be bigger then yours or caught on the river like he did. I know it was only the minimum but save those bets buddy!

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the pot was big enough to call this

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I dissagree...once again ill state... what do you think his hand can beat at this point?

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two pair, five's and four's was what I was thinking. And then I was hoping against hope that queen didn't hit him.

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Originally Posted by RiverMonkey

o He's calling your $50 bet into a $94 pot on the turn for what purpose? (that means the pot was offering him just under 3:1, whereas a 6 outer with one card to come requires over 6.5:1 to be profitable).

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He actually got his implied odds, though. He called $50 with about a 12% chance of hitting, and ended up winning a $500 pot, which makes it a barely profitable play if he knew his 6 outs were good AND ensign_lee would bet the river and call a raise. If he raised the river more, and all of the above was true, it really wouldn't be that bad of a play.

Similarly, I really think checking that river would've been the better play, ensign. You have to figure he only calls if he had a higher pocket pair or a Q. You checking the river if a high card comes would've made it a bad turn call for him, as then he'd have no implied odds. How you played the river actually made his turn call ok.

Everyone keeps saying 6 outs. I think he had 7, as the other 4 would also put him ahead.