Folding K-K.

There was a discussion before about folding K-K preflop. I didn't do that here, but this seems like a situation where folding K-K might be appropriate. By the flop, there simply weren't any hands I could beat other than a very unlikely A-K.

PokerStars Game #1685119272: Hold'em No Limit ($0.50/$1.00) - 2005/05/12 - 17:27:03 (ET)
Table 'Suttung' Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: simplylotus ($111.60 in chips)
Seat 2: chuckybrown ($98.90 in chips)
Seat 3: SmattRat ($104.80 in chips)
Seat 4: dsaxton ($98.55 in chips)
Seat 5: TheGoose10 ($24 in chips)
Seat 6: Chegwidden ($93.50 in chips)
Seat 7: Sorken ($123.65 in chips)
Seat 8: boust ($95 in chips)
boust: posts small blind $0.50
simplylotus: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to dsaxton [Kc Kh]
chuckybrown: folds
SmattRat: folds
dsaxton: raises $3 to $4
TheGoose10: folds
Chegwidden: folds
Sorken: raises $8 to $12
boust: folds
simplylotus: folds
dsaxton: raises $8 to $20
Sorken: calls $8
*** FLOP *** [4c Jd Qs]
Eric97068 joins the table at seat #9
dsaxton: checks
Sorken: bets $41
dsaxton: folds
Sorken collected $39.45 from pot
Sorken: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $41.50 | Rake $2.05
Board [4c Jd Qs]
Seat 1: simplylotus (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: chuckybrown folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: SmattRat folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: dsaxton folded on the Flop
Seat 5: TheGoose10 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: Chegwidden folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: Sorken (button) collected ($39.45)
Seat 8: boust (small blind) folded before Flop

He voluntarily ended the re-raise war before the flop; that's unusual for AA. But I think you're right, that flop was a bad one. The only other hands I could put him on would be QQ or *maybe* JJ, and either way he's got you dead in the water. If he's got AA he's still ahead of you, although his leadout bet is risky considering you could easily be holding QQ yourself. Anyway, good fold.

Very weird hand. I dont like how it went down though. Your min raising and checking doesnt say shit about his hand.

On the other hand, this does look bad for you if he does in fact have AA, QQ, JJ like he was reppin.

I like your fold, personally... it's a touch call... but the only rational hand he could have had that you were ahead of is AK, and even then he's got 7 outs.

Edit: I doubt he's going All in with AK, anyhow.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SmackinYaUp

I dont like how it went down though. Your min raising and checking doesnt say shit about his hand.

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Why doesn't raising the minimum help tell me where I stand preflop?

And I didn't think that it was even necessary to get more information on the flop. The preflop action essentially told me the range of hands he was likely to have.

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Originally Posted by dsaxton

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SmackinYaUp

I dont like how it went down though. Your min raising and checking doesnt say shit about his hand.

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Why doesn't raising the minimum help tell me where I stand preflop?

And I didn't think that it was even necessary to get more information on the flop. The preflop action essentially told me the range of hands he was likely to have.

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Well, getting raised from $4 to $12 with a pair of kings looks like a pretty good situation to get them allin preflop or at least half your stack into the middle and then the other half on the flop no matter what.

But, like I said, that looks like a very strong fold. At first glance I was thinking "why the hell did he check and fold that!?" But it really does look like you are beaten so good call - or should I say good fold.

nice hand.

-'rilla

Plus, I see a lot of people play pocket nines, eights, and tens like total nutjobs as well - they seem to randomly go on tilt when they get a pocket pair like that. I wouldnt call my entire stack off on that hope, but Im just saying that it happens. Still a good fold, but Im voting for more preflop action.

An Agg. AQ might make that same play

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SmackinYaUp

Very weird hand. I dont like how it went down though. Your min raising and checking doesnt say shit about his hand.

On the other hand, this does look bad for you if he does in fact have AA, QQ, JJ like he was reppin.

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It still gives you a fair amount of information about his hand, and you are still playing the second nuts at the moment, which means that most of the time it will be the best hand. So min-raising to get more money into the pot is a good idea here.

I don't see the point in raising half your stack, thats how you get QQ, JJ, AK to fold, but get AA to put you allin. Thats exactly what you don't want, whereas if you can get QQ, JJ, AK into a raise war you have put yourself in great position. Either way you lose your stack against AA but by min-raising you get to bring those worse hands along for the ride.

And for the hand, unless the guy is a total fish i think that this was a good fold.

Push that shit preflop

saxton doesn't folding here bother u? lol.. i lay down but not to this...

then again im not saying you should've called, i just would've had too...
i probly would've pushed more preflop tho

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ender555

saxton doesn't folding here bother u? lol.. i lay down but not to this...

then again im not saying you should've called, i just would've had too...
i probly would've pushed more preflop tho

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I don't really mind folding a losing hand.

And I don't think raising more preflop is a good choice with virtually no read on the player. Raising the minimum serves the dual purpose of building a pot and potentially gaining information about his hand.

I was reading Harrington's book today and he talks alot about making the correct plays so that you don't lose hands you shouldn't. This applies to this hand perfectly.

He puts over 10% of the TOTAL CHIPS YOU COULD WIN FROM HIM into the pot preflop. Why aren't you putting the rest of your chips into the pot. If he has AA, he has you, if he has ANYTHING ELSE, you have him killed. The 12$ you lifted from him is enough to many many orbits for free (assuming he folds)

1 in 8.5 times you are going to see a flop you like (even less actually), what of the times you don't flop that king and he makes move on the flop? Rarely should you put yourself into these positions, and ONLY when you have a rock-solid read on a player.

But, considering your mistake preflop, folding the flop is really your only option.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by doggz

I was reading Harrington's book today and he talks alot about making the correct plays so that you don't lose hands you shouldn't. This applies to this hand perfectly.

He puts over 10% of the TOTAL CHIPS YOU COULD WIN FROM HIM into the pot preflop. Why aren't you putting the rest of your chips into the pot. If he has AA, he has you, if he has ANYTHING ELSE, you have him killed. The 12$ you lifted from him is enough to many many orbits for free (assuming he folds)

1 in 8.5 times you are going to see a flop you like (even less actually), what of the times you don't flop that king and he makes move on the flop? Rarely should you put yourself into these positions, and ONLY when you have a rock-solid read on a player.

But, considering your mistake preflop, folding the flop is really your only option.

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Huh? This post doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

You're saying just push all-in preflop whenever you have K-K and get reraised? Why? So he folds inferior hands and calls with A-A?

By the way, this is a cash game, not a tournament. Harrington's book is about tournaments.

Wouldn't betting the flop here be a good idea? See how he reacts and try to get a good read on the turn? If he hasn't shown A LOT of strength on the flop.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Estrop

Wouldn't betting the flop here be a good idea? See how he reacts and try to get a good read on the turn? If he hasn't shown A LOT of strength on the flop.

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"And I didn't think that it was even necessary to get more information on the flop. The preflop action essentially told me the range of hands he was likely to have."

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dsaxton

Quote:

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Originally Posted by doggz

I was reading Harrington's book today and he talks alot about making the correct plays so that you don't lose hands you shouldn't. This applies to this hand perfectly.

He puts over 10% of the TOTAL CHIPS YOU COULD WIN FROM HIM into the pot preflop. Why aren't you putting the rest of your chips into the pot. If he has AA, he has you, if he has ANYTHING ELSE, you have him killed. The 12$ you lifted from him is enough to many many orbits for free (assuming he folds)

1 in 8.5 times you are going to see a flop you like (even less actually), what of the times you don't flop that king and he makes move on the flop? Rarely should you put yourself into these positions, and ONLY when you have a rock-solid read on a player.

But, considering your mistake preflop, folding the flop is really your only option.

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Huh? This post doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

You're saying just push all-in preflop whenever you have K-K and get reraised? Why? So he folds inferior hands and calls with A-A?

Right, you might as well just FOLD KK to a reraise then. With this line of thinking what are you hoping to hit on your flop? Just hoping he misses and you can take it down there? Don't let him draw out out on you. You are playing 1$ BB and there are MANY hands he is going to call with besides AA. I play this limit all the time and players love playing AK AQ QQ JJ TT for all their chips preflop.

By the way, this is a cash game, not a tournament. Harrington's book is about tournaments.

Yes, his book is about tournament play, but that doesn't change the point. Playing well prevents you from losing hands you shouldn't.

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dsaxton, I love your posts, but it is actually your post that doesn't make a whole lot of sense :?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by doggz

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dsaxton

Quote:

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Originally Posted by doggz

I was reading Harrington's book today and he talks alot about making the correct plays so that you don't lose hands you shouldn't. This applies to this hand perfectly.

He puts over 10% of the TOTAL CHIPS YOU COULD WIN FROM HIM into the pot preflop. Why aren't you putting the rest of your chips into the pot. If he has AA, he has you, if he has ANYTHING ELSE, you have him killed. The 12$ you lifted from him is enough to many many orbits for free (assuming he folds)

1 in 8.5 times you are going to see a flop you like (even less actually), what of the times you don't flop that king and he makes move on the flop? Rarely should you put yourself into these positions, and ONLY when you have a rock-solid read on a player.

But, considering your mistake preflop, folding the flop is really your only option.

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Huh? This post doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

You're saying just push all-in preflop whenever you have K-K and get reraised? Why? So he folds inferior hands and calls with A-A?

Right, you might as well just FOLD KK to a reraise then. With this line of thinking what are you hoping to hit on your flop? Just hoping he misses and you can take it down there? Don't let him draw out out on you. You are playing 1$ BB and there are MANY hands he is going to call with besides AA. I play this limit all the time and players love playing AK AQ QQ JJ TT for all their chips preflop.

By the way, this is a cash game, not a tournament. Harrington's book is about tournaments.

Yes, his book is about tournament play, but that doesn't change the point. Playing well prevents you from losing hands you shouldn't.

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dsaxton, I love your posts, but it is actually your post that doesn't make a whole lot of sense :?

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The raise doesn't really have anything to do with what I'm hoping to flop. I'm raising to build a pot against inferior hands, and to gain information.

I think you're assuming that because I check-folded on the flop that this meant I was just hoping to flop a set or something, which isn't the case. I check-folded because even if he was behind preflop, he was almost certainly ahead after the flop.

I wouldn't have check-folded if the flop had come 3, 4, 10 or something, I would have bet.

First of all:
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ic.php?t=11776


Secondly, playing KK very hard preflop is not one of those situations where only better hands call you. So many poker pros advocate getting as much money in the pot preflop w/ AA and KK that it surely isnt a -ev thing to do. Im not saying that their words are god, but it surely cant hurt to take them into consideration.

I dont think there was any reason to really worry about playing the hand super fast against only one opponent, but if he was ready to play, you might as well get the chips in the middle. If you wanted to build a big pot, you did that, but you also lost it. With such a big pot and you checking, he was basically betting with anything because you looked scared and he wanted it now. In fact, if he did have AK, I think that is a great play on his part because you look weak, he has overs + a gutshot, plus folding equity. Your preflop play looks decent, but I would definitely advise getting a lot more of your stacks in the middle. His preflop reraise was pretty big, so why not re-raise him bigger? If he folds, then fine you get the pot. If not, its up to the cards.

I am not saying you played it badly at all, because it is a tough one and also very possible that he has a set or AA so you may in fact have saved yourself a buyin. Consider this a post of alternatives.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SmackinYaUp

First of all:
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ic.php?t=11776


Secondly, playing KK very hard preflop is not one of those situations where only better hands call you. So many poker pros advocate getting as much money in the pot preflop w/ AA and KK that it surely isnt a -ev thing to do. Im not saying that their words are god, but it surely cant hurt to take them into consideration.

I dont think there was any reason to really worry about playing the hand super fast against only one opponent, but if he was ready to play, you might as well get the chips in the middle. If you wanted to build a big pot, you did that, but you also lost it. With such a big pot and you checking, he was basically betting with anything because you looked scared and he wanted it now. In fact, if he did have AK, I think that is a great play on his part because you look weak, he has overs + a gutshot, plus folding equity. Your preflop play looks decent, but I would definitely advise getting a lot more of your stacks in the middle. His preflop reraise was pretty big, so why not re-raise him bigger? If he folds, then fine you get the pot. If not, its up to the cards.

I am not saying you played it badly at all, because it is a tough one and also very possible that he has a set or AA so you may in fact have saved yourself a buyin. Consider this a post of alternatives.

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I'm not seeking any kind of confirmation, since I believe I played the hand correctly. And as to why I should be reraising huge preflop here, you need to offer some sort of argument other than "some pros say so."

This hand is completely simple, and I honestly don't see what's so controversial about it. I raise with kings, he reraises, I figure he has J-J, Q-Q or A-A, I reraise the minimum both to build a pot against Q-Q and J-J and also to give myself an opportunity to get away from the hand if it becomes clear he has A-A. The flop comes Q, J high, meaning I'm probably almost drawing dead, so I check-fold. What doesn't make sense about this?

Im not trying to bash your play here, I am merely giving my take on the hand. Its not a simple hand, and as I said, I dont think that your fold was terrible. If this was such an easy hand, there wouldnt be as much discussion as there was.


Getting lots of money in the pot preflop with KK is a good play and is common knowledge, but I just added in the fact that pros advocate it since you seemed so against that when you say that only AA is calling.

Also like I said, playing KK slower against a single opponent isnt necessarily a bad play, but I dont think your play here is so exceptional that it deserves such hardcore defense.

re raise all in pre flop. CLEARLY.

yes you may get called by AA but that's a 5% risk you should be willing to take in order to steal $12 -- a substantial amount of cash for a hand that is vulnerable to a single ace in the next 5 cards.

most of the time your AI will be called by AK, QQ, JJ, or something TOTALLY INFERIOR. in my most recent sessions, i have personally been called AI pre flop 3 times by QQ, once by AKo, and once by A5o.

yes if QQ or JJ calls you in this particular hand you fall behind on the flop. but that is a highly improbable scenario that does not change the long term +EV of re-raising AI pre flop with the best hand. who knows, you might have caught your K on the river.

it is entirely possible that your opponent had 77 and reraised pre flop because he thought you had AK and wanted to get HU. i know many people who would make this play then bet the flop to take it down.

ChezJ

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ChezJ

re raise all in pre flop. CLEARLY.

yes you may get called by AA but that's a 5% risk you should be willing to take in order to steal $12 -- a substantial amount of cash for a hand that is vulnerable to a single ace in the next 5 cards.

most of the time your AI will be called by AK, QQ, JJ, or something TOTALLY INFERIOR. in my most recent sessions, i have personally been called AI pre flop 3 times by QQ, once by AKo, and once by A5o.

yes if QQ or JJ calls you in this particular hand you fall behind on the flop. but that is a highly improbable scenario that does not change the long term +EV of re-raising AI pre flop with the best hand. who knows, you might have caught your K on the river.

it is entirely possible that your opponent had 77 and reraised pre flop because he thought you had AK and wanted to get HU. i know many people who would make this play then bet the flop to take it down.

ChezJ

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How is that obviously the right play?

The raise I made serves two good purposes and your play serves to go broke against A-A or win a small pot against a dominated hand that would've paid you off after the flop. Which is better?

By the way, it sounds like you play with absolute fish. The plays you're describing are not exactly "standard" plays that you should expect from a random opponent.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SmackinYaUp

Im not trying to bash your play here, I am merely giving my take on the hand. Its not a simple hand, and as I said, I dont think that your fold was terrible. If this was such an easy hand, there wouldnt be as much discussion as there was.


Getting lots of money in the pot preflop with KK is a good play and is common knowledge, but I just added in the fact that pros advocate it since you seemed so against that when you say that only AA is calling.

Also like I said, playing KK slower against a single opponent isnt necessarily a bad play, but I dont think your play here is so exceptional that it deserves such hardcore defense.

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Putting in a huge reraise is not "getting a bunch of money in the pot before the flop." It's telling dominated hands to fold and A-A to put you all-in. Again, you should give some sort of an argument for why a play is better. "Because according to me pros think you should do this," is not an argument.

The crux of your whole criticism is that I didn't reraise enough before the flop. I've said this like half a dozen times in this thread: I was reraising for information as well as for value.

And, um, I didn't slow-play anything.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dsaxton

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SmackinYaUp

Im not trying to bash your play here, I am merely giving my take on the hand. Its not a simple hand, and as I said, I dont think that your fold was terrible. If this was such an easy hand, there wouldnt be as much discussion as there was.


Getting lots of money in the pot preflop with KK is a good play and is common knowledge, but I just added in the fact that pros advocate it since you seemed so against that when you say that only AA is calling.

Also like I said, playing KK slower against a single opponent isnt necessarily a bad play, but I dont think your play here is so exceptional that it deserves such hardcore defense.

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Putting in a huge reraise is not "getting a bunch of money in the pot before the flop." It's telling dominated hands to fold and A-A to put you all-in.

And, um, I didn't slow-play anything.

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I didnt say you slowplayed anything. I said that you played KK slower than most would have in this situation. I agree that putting a huge reraise allin preflop to a tiny minbet might not always be the best play, but this guy reraised you pretty fucking big. Why not get more of your chips in there instead of minraising against a huge re-raise? If he has AA then too bad, go kick your dog or something and hope for better luck next time.

Why minraise for information and value after such a huge re-raise? The pot is big, and he appears to be pretty much married to his hand so go ahead and get MORE value.

And, um, if all I'm going to get is attitude then I guess from now on I'll learn to mind my own business when you post.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SmackinYaUp

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dsaxton

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SmackinYaUp

Im not trying to bash your play here, I am merely giving my take on the hand. Its not a simple hand, and as I said, I dont think that your fold was terrible. If this was such an easy hand, there wouldnt be as much discussion as there was.


Getting lots of money in the pot preflop with KK is a good play and is common knowledge, but I just added in the fact that pros advocate it since you seemed so against that when you say that only AA is calling.

Also like I said, playing KK slower against a single opponent isnt necessarily a bad play, but I dont think your play here is so exceptional that it deserves such hardcore defense.

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Putting in a huge reraise is not "getting a bunch of money in the pot before the flop." It's telling dominated hands to fold and A-A to put you all-in.

And, um, I didn't slow-play anything.

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I didnt say you slowplayed anything. I said that you played KK slower than most would have in this situation. I agree that putting a huge reraise allin preflop to a tiny minbet might not always be the best play, but this guy reraised you pretty fucking big. Why not get more of your chips in there instead of minraising against a huge re-raise? If he has AA then too bad, go kick your dog or something and hope for better luck next time.

Why minraise for information and value after such a huge re-raise? The pot is big, and he appears to be pretty much married to his hand so go ahead and get MORE value.

And, um, if all I'm going to get is attitude then I guess from now on I'll learn to mind my own business when you post.

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Yes. He reraised big, suggesting he may have A-A. So, I reraise the minimum to see if he reraises again, telling me he has A-A.

It just gets annoying when I respond to some criticism and someone replies with the exact same criticism and I have to keep reiterating the same points.

Summary: You minraised with KK and then check/folded it.


Trust me, this is annoying for me as well. I feel that this hand was misplayed preflop for min rasing and postflop for checking but I have learned my lesson. I apologize for interfering. Carry on.

Kill this thread. dsaxton, you misplayed this hand, but this obviously is not according to your playstyle.

This board is to improve your play, not to flame each other. If you are a consistantly winning player, then move along, we are only trying to raise your winrate.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by doggz

Kill this thread. dsaxton, you misplayed this hand, but this obviously is not according to your playstyle.

This board is to improve your play, not to flame each other. If you are a consistantly winning player, then move along, we are only trying to raise your winrate.

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He criticized the play, and I defended it. I thought that was part of the purpose of this forum.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dsaxton

Quote:

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Originally Posted by doggz

Kill this thread. dsaxton, you misplayed this hand, but this obviously is not according to your playstyle.

This board is to improve your play, not to flame each other. If you are a consistantly winning player, then move along, we are only trying to raise your winrate.

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He criticized the play, and I defended it. I thought that was part of the purpose of this forum.

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Yes, niether side is listening to the other. This forum is for discussing and there is 0 discussing in this thread. You or anyone against you obviously are not changing views.

one other hand he could've had is kk :)

but i think u made the right fold looking on it now..

unless he was a complete fish that is

I would re-raise big pre-flop, probably make it $35 flat and plan to push on any flop. Worse hands call/push, don't be silly. Shit, Mike called a re-raise and flop push/over-bet with a worse hand Sunday night when I had QQ.

Post-flop is well played.