1/2 antes: strange line

So been playing tournaments only for a month. Sat down at 1/2 table with antes to get some cash feel again and this hand comes up after a few minutes.

Villain is 33/22 over tiny small sample.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (5 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB ($381.20)
UTG ($264.30)
MP ($416.70)
Hero (Button) ($400)
SB ($577.40)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A, J
UTG bets $6, 1 fold, Hero calls $6, SB calls $5, BB calls $4

Flop: ($25.50) 6, A, 7 (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets $20, 2 folds, UTG calls $20

Turn: ($65.50) 7 (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $52, UTG raises to $140, Hero?

I don't see how we can fold against an unknown, but srsly wtf? Feels like bluffing to shove here, but not much point in letting him draw if we are going with the hand anyway (he has about $95 left). He might bluff the river if he is terrible though, which his line kinda suggests. I doubt there's too many sevens in his UTG range, but kinda hard to put him on a draw also since he didn't cbet.

Edit: 33/22 not 22/33

Why not? I fold, doesnt seem too hard.

I think this is a boat or quads more than a fd.

I sat and played in those 1/2 deep ante tables for like 30 minutes the other day, they are ridiculously wild. Money is flying all over the place, it's crazy.

Anyways, I feel like you really over-rep your hand when you bet the turn here. The flop was 4 way with most players being 200bb deep, you just can't get a second street of value from AT and when you do bet the turn you open yourself up to get shoved on by what could possibly be a FD and what could also possibly be a 7 (they randomly show up w/ them, don't ask me how). But yeah, check turn IMO.

meh i kinda like the turn bet. I would have bet more like 14 on the flop though.

i would definitely fold because I think your range looks polarized due to your huge sizing, so he's shouldnt turn made hands to bluffs assuming he's a reasonable player (i have no idea what 22/33 means)

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

Why not? I fold, doesnt seem too hard.

I think this is a boat or quads more than a fd.

Am I really supposed to believe that villain did not cbet an ace high drawy board with a set/two pair fourway? REALLY? I'm also blocking top set here and this villain didn't even buy in max.

Originally Posted by Renton

meh i kinda like the turn bet. I would have bet more like 14 on the flop though.

Who is folding any half decent hand if I bet 14? I don't want three callers with any part of my range.

Originally Posted by Renton

i would definitely fold because I think your range looks polarized due to your huge sizing, so he's shouldnt turn made hands to bluffs assuming he's a reasonable player (i have no idea what 22/33 means)

33/22 (insert your least favorite acronym). We've got zero evidence of him being reasonable. Why would a decent player take this line with any hand?

Originally Posted by Marshall28

I sat and played in those 1/2 deep ante tables for like 30 minutes the other day, they are ridiculously wild. Money is flying all over the place, it's crazy.

Anyways, I feel like you really over-rep your hand when you bet the turn here. The flop was 4 way with most players being 200bb deep, you just can't get a second street of value from AT and when you do bet the turn you open yourself up to get shoved on by what could possibly be a FD and what could also possibly be a 7 (they randomly show up w/ them, don't ask me how). But yeah, check turn IMO.

Yeah, it's seemed like a total monkey fest. But what reason do I have to think that I'm behind before I bet the turn? If either SB or BB would have called my flop bet the situation would be entirely different.

i dont think you have a good argument for betting this turn like you did. a 24$ bet is probably good and a 52$ bet is probably somewhere between far from optimal and burning money. and once he raises it is certainly annoying and fishy looking but why would a weak player frequently show up with a worse hand than AJ with this line?

If I had a read that villain was fishy I'd probably bet this turn, but otherwise I'd probably check back a fair bit. I'd expect villain to bet most of his draws on the flop, so I don't think our bet serves the purpose of pricing his draws. In which case I think his hand is primarily QQ/KK type stuff or slowplayed Ace/big hand. In either case, I agree with nuts that we should bet smaller.

As played, why would a range of QQ+ ever need to c/r this turn? I think we're killed here to his c/r range, so b/f.

Originally Posted by nutsinho

i dont think you have a good argument for betting this turn like you did. a 24$ bet is probably good and a 52$ bet is probably somewhere between far from optimal and burning money. and once he raises it is certainly annoying and fishy looking but why would a weak player frequently show up with a worse hand than AJ with this line?

Did you spend even a short moment of your time to think why I bet that river so big in the last hand of our HU match?

i dont think you should bet the turn i dont understand why you think it has value.

Originally Posted by Massimo

i dont think you should bet the turn i dont understand why you think it has value.

One man's garbage is another man's gold.

Originally Posted by pocketfours

Originally Posted by Massimo

i dont think you should bet the turn i dont understand why you think it has value.

One man's garbage is another man's gold.

Well explain...

I think this is just 7x the large majority of the time. I don't see how you can call. I'm undecided on betting turn but I think 52 is too big since you've not getting 3 streets here.

Yeah I think this is 7x like 84.6% of the time.

Originally Posted by pocketfours

Originally Posted by Renton

meh i kinda like the turn bet. I would have bet more like 14 on the flop though.

Who is folding any half decent hand if I bet 14? I don't want three callers with any part of my range.

i don't understand your point or see how any of that is a problem

I just think a 2/3ish amount is gonna meld a little bit better with the entire range of hands you are gonna want to bet here, and it will put you in a better position to get a second or third street of value from tons of worse made hands. When you blast the pot like you did (on the flop AND the turn) the implied threat is greater against those hands, but its also riskier to do because of how variable an unknown's interpretation of a large bet can be.

Originally Posted by pocketfours

Originally Posted by nutsinho

i dont think you have a good argument for betting this turn like you did. a 24$ bet is probably good and a 52$ bet is probably somewhere between far from optimal and burning money. and once he raises it is certainly annoying and fishy looking but why would a weak player frequently show up with a worse hand than AJ with this line?

Did you spend even a short moment of your time to think why I bet that river so big in the last hand of our HU match?

yea u really outplayed me in that $5 sng. i couldnt sleep for days; id never seen anyone overbet for value before

Originally Posted by Massimo

Originally Posted by pocketfours

Originally Posted by Massimo

i dont think you should bet the turn i dont understand why you think it has value.

One man's garbage is another man's gold.

Well explain...

I think I have the stone cold nuts and I want to bet as close to the geometric growth as possible, just like I would with any other nutted hand. Villain is either drawing or not believing, I don't care which it is. Betting smaller doesn't make his drawing less profitable or him believing any less.

Originally Posted by nutsinho

Originally Posted by pocketfours

Originally Posted by nutsinho

i dont think you have a good argument for betting this turn like you did. a 24$ bet is probably good and a 52$ bet is probably somewhere between far from optimal and burning money. and once he raises it is certainly annoying and fishy looking but why would a weak player frequently show up with a worse hand than AJ with this line?

Did you spend even a short moment of your time to think why I bet that river so big in the last hand of our HU match?

yea u really outplayed me in that $5 sng. i couldnt sleep for days; id never seen anyone overbet for value before

We weren't playing for the money, we were playing for the honor of winning. You lost because you didn't give my game enough credit. I won because I expected that you wouldn't.

P4'S, you posted this so people would give you advice, you don't seem to be listening or even wanting any after looking at your replies.


In regards to the hand, he's a complete unknown, you have no idea what his tendencies are, his line may we uber weird but ruling out aq,ak/boats is silly. Imo I feel it's more likely he has a 7 here which would make sense in that he was trying to c/c the flop but instead c/c's a bet then c/r's a 7 turn, I'd just bet/fold turn.


I also feel you can bet the turn smaller while still achieveing the same objective, something around half pot.

I know what you mean about wanting to size it such that he thinks you're bluffy, for the times he's not believing.

Though I think I'd rather bet smaller on the turn ($40) and let him get to the river with most of his range, and then put in the big bet when there is no more threat of further bets and it looks like a last resort steal for 160 into 140 or something.

Originally Posted by griffey24

I know what you mean about wanting to size it such that he thinks you're bluffy, for the times he's not believing.

Though I think I'd rather bet smaller on the turn ($40) and let him get to the river with most of his range, and then put in the big bet when there is no more threat of further bets and it looks like a last resort steal for 160 into 140 or something.

I don't remember when I would have been called down by a PP when I took your line. If I bet $40 he isn't making a very big mistake on the turn by calling with a good draw in this RIO spot. It might not be a mistake at all since I'm calling a lead shove on any river anyway. A big bet does a good job of inducing spew from bad aggros so I'm perfectly happy when I face a checkraise.

I wasn't sure whether to call or shove so I shoved, which I still think is better than calling. The strange thing was that he TANKED, then folded and immediately left the table. I was left slightly confused. Funniest shit ever if he folded the best hand, but that still has to be highly unlikely. I'm thinking he tanked because he realized he was almost commited with any kind of garbage he might have had.

Originally Posted by ATOTHEC101

P4'S, you posted this so people would give you advice, you don't seem to be listening or even wanting any after looking at your replies.

Well I'm not that interested to hear that I should be folding, because it's totally braindead to bet $52 on this turn if I'm planning on folding to a checkraise. I was asking whether I should call or shove and nobody seems to have any opinions about that.

Originally Posted by ATOTHEC101

In regards to the hand, he's a complete unknown, you have no idea what his tendencies are, his line may we uber weird but ruling out aq,ak/boats is silly. Imo I feel it's more likely he has a 7 here which would make sense in that he was trying to c/c the flop but instead c/c's a bet then c/r's a 7 turn, I'd just bet/fold turn.


I also feel you can bet the turn smaller while still achieveing the same objective, something around half pot.

I'm of course not ruling out any hand, that's silly. I'm just giving low weight to certain parts of his range. I disagree about sizing as I explained in response to my man the Griffo. I can bet smaller if I'm willing to fold the river, but since I'm not folding I can't bet so little.

I guess I'm mostly just confused as to what range of hands you put him on (draws or made hands) that chose to c/c the flop instead of betting out himself?

Originally Posted by griffey24

I guess I'm mostly just confused as to what range of hands you put him on (draws or made hands) that chose to c/c the flop instead of betting out himself?

I don't try to overthink his exact range. I just expect him to bet the flop if he's got me beat and I don't think a seven is a huge part of his range here at all. He also didn't take any time before checking the turn, which slightly discounts the sevens in his range. I can't put him on 67s, so then it would have to be 78s or EXACTLY 7s8s/7d8d.

P4's,

The main problem I see in your thought process with regards to hand valuation has to do with the fact that the flop was 4 way. Were this a heads up or even 3 way, the scenario becomes much different and your hand becomes quite a bit stronger. But in a 4 way pot, there's no way you get more than one street of value with this holding from anything you're ahead of at 1/2. 1/2 plays so nitty postflop, no one will c/c a fd twice unless they are super fish, and 80% of players will fold AT to one bet. Also, anyone with a set is dumb enough to be slowplaying. You are much better off checking back the turn and bluff catching the river than you are to bet the turn and then guess whether or not to call or fold to a shove.

edit: also, don't get so defensive.