100NL defending against a 3b

the guy is running 25/19 with a 3b of 5.9 over 347 hands

Standard spot to defend pf? Standard float on the flop? I might as well shove the turn since I'm pot committed after a call, but I didn't do the math for it during the hand.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP ($200)
CO ($128.95)
Hero (Button) ($140.95)
SB ($63.90)
BB ($221.30)
UTG ($100)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J, K
3 folds, Hero bets $2.50, SB calls $2, BB raises to $13, Hero calls $10.50, 1 fold

Flop: ($28.50) 8, 4, 6 (2 players)
BB bets $22, Hero calls $22

Turn: ($72.50) K (2 players)
BB bets $40, Hero calls $40

River: ($152.50) 8 (2 players)
BB bets $146.30 (All-In), Hero calls $65.95 (All-In)

Total pot: $284.40 | Rake: $3

The flop float is def not standard, i don't like to float flops when i have pretty much no equity. How often is he doubling turns in 3b pots..if he's the type to give up on turns with an unbalanced range then i guess its ok. But if u hit a J/K on turn...and he doubles, ur gonna be like wtf.

K so hate the flop float. hate hate hate.

Shove the turn. Fold the river.

Fold preflop, his range is way too strong to defend with KJ and no reads that he likes to squeeze.

Fold flop because he made a big c-bet on a board that won't often get c-bet bluffed.

Guess you're going to have to shove the turn since this is the best card you could hope for but you're in a world of hurt since this guy which you've mentioned no 3bet history with, who's OOP, who's semi-deep with you, is pricing you in for a river call anyway.

oh whoops I forgot to write histories
I've been 3bing him a lot and he started 4bing me because my 3b is in double digits, but he hasn't really 3b me as much as I 3b him

fold preflop is so so so so so the correct play given reads and stack sizes.

I don't think any street in this hand is standard.

preflop is not standard, flop is definitely not standard, and given stack sizes and how much will be left on river I don't even think flatting turn is standard.

fold pre mostly, but calling sometimes is ok.
fold flop for sure, unless you have a read that he plays straight forward and will shut down with air on turns. Otherwise, his value range is too wide and he can "bluff" you on the turn with a second bullet and you'll have to fold too often.

Given stacks, jam turn for sure,since there's not enough behind on river for him to bluff really. Deeper stacks would make a turn call better.

Fold pre really? Even if he has 6% 3-bet overall, it's going to be a lot higher than 6% in this awesome spot to squeeze.

I really hate the flop float though since this flop slams a lot of the hands that he could be 3-betting light with.

Originally Posted by mcatdog

Fold pre really? Even if he has 6% 3-bet overall, it's going to be a lot higher than 6% in this awesome spot to squeeze.

I don't think 6 3bet is that high at all, and some ppl just don't squeeze much really. I guess his squeeze stat would be more helpful than his 3bet stat in this case.

Also SB's 3bet stat is also important here, cause if his 3bet is low I can see SB having a range here that he'd jam over our call with, which makes our worse.

sb is bad so I'd never expect him to jam if he didn't think his hand was good enough to 3b in the first place

Griffey - so your default assumption is that someone with 25/19 stats has no clue about position, and you need to actually see him make a fairly standard play before you give him credit for being capable of it?

ipoq is 100nl now? wow

mcatdog, people dont squeeze much at 100nl. imo it only starts at 200nl imo

Originally Posted by mcatdog

Griffey - so your default assumption is that someone with 25/19 stats has no clue about position, and you need to actually see him make a fairly standard play before you give him credit for being capable of it?

Yaah I mean mostly what DaGoat said. I have no clue how rampant 3betting is at 100nl these days, so if its fairly common then thats a diff story.

Though in general I'd say I learn towards the "folding more 3bets than most".... even in position.. so that could be why.

You definately should have folded the flop. King High definately wouldn't hold up.

Originally Posted by mcatdog

Griffey - so your default assumption is that someone with 25/19 stats has no clue about position, and you need to actually see him make a fairly standard play before you give him credit for being capable of it?

I've been mucking around at 100NL lately retooling my game and hiding from a downswing. I would say it is definitely best to assume these players including the ones with decent-ish stats, at this limit, are incapable of 3 betting light and do not understand position.

Originally Posted by Galapogos

Originally Posted by mcatdog

Griffey - so your default assumption is that someone with 25/19 stats has no clue about position, and you need to actually see him make a fairly standard play before you give him credit for being capable of it?

I've been mucking around at 100NL lately retooling my game and hiding from a downswing. I would say it is definitely best to assume these players including the ones with decent-ish stats, at this limit, are incapable of 3 betting light and do not understand position.

100% agree

preflop i would def call but it's not like its going to be very profitable for you, particularly if you are floating flops like this. I mean, I could not actually pick a worse board and hand to float with than you have chosen here. Luckily you went from like 1% to 45% against his range on the turn so you should probably shove; I don't think a 100nl player is going to bluff you for 65$ into 152$ on the river nor do I think he will betfold TT-QQ or a draw getting nearly 4:1 odds to call your shove. I mean how do you make money at poker?

Originally Posted by nutsinho

preflop i would def call but it's not like its going to be very profitable for you, particularly if you are floating flops like this. I mean, I could not actually pick a worse board and hand to float with than you have chosen here. Luckily you went from like 1% to 45% against his range on the turn so you should probably shove; I don't think a 100nl player is going to bluff you for 65$ into 152$ on the river nor do I think he will betfold TT-QQ or a draw getting nearly 4:1 odds to call your shove. I mean how do you make money at poker?

I don't know, people just keep giving me money

Originally Posted by Galapogos

I've been mucking around at 100NL lately retooling my game and hiding from a downswing. I would say it is definitely best to assume these players including the ones with decent-ish stats, at this limit, are incapable of 3 betting light and do not understand position.

No? Maybe like a 16/13 with a 2-3% 3b, but not this guy who is going to be keen to 3b more from the blinds v lp openers which I believe is compounded by a squeeze opportunity.

obv mcat beats me to it, galap u can set me up an account where you play, just pm me when you're done

Originally Posted by lolzzz_321

Originally Posted by Galapogos

I've been mucking around at 100NL lately retooling my game and hiding from a downswing. I would say it is definitely best to assume these players including the ones with decent-ish stats, at this limit, are incapable of 3 betting light and do not understand position.

No? Maybe like a 16/13 with a 2-3% 3b.

Basically this. Anyone with 25/19 stats is more than likely to have some kind of a clue about position.

I see nothing wrong with folding pre, especially with the SB being so short he could def shove a bunch of hands on us. I'd probably call but I think its close.

As played id just ship the turn.

Originally Posted by Galapogos

Originally Posted by mcatdog

Griffey - so your default assumption is that someone with 25/19 stats has no clue about position, and you need to actually see him make a fairly standard play before you give him credit for being capable of it?

I've been mucking around at 100NL lately retooling my game and hiding from a downswing. I would say it is definitely best to assume these players including the ones with decent-ish stats, at this limit, are incapable of 3 betting light and do not understand position.

this can't be right, you think 6% is his value range? He has to be 3bing AJ for value to reach 6% or be running hot over 347 hands, which I doubt so I'm going to conclude he 3b bluffs a certain % of the time

I looked up more detailed stats and he squeezed twice out of 27 hands which is 7.7% (one of them being this hand of course)
he opened 14 times UTG, 20 times from MP, 27 times from CO and 52 times on the button so he's positionally aware
he cold calls 10% which is what explains the reasonably large gap between VPIP and PFR

I think you're off-base here

i wrote out a tilted response but deleted it. op last post tilts me 'alot' like dumb and dumber 'alot''

Originally Posted by Da GOAT

i wrote out a tilted response but deleted it. op last post tilts me 'alot' like dumb and dumber 'alot''

I tend to have that effect on people

hdjgshlkjdghlska warble garble

Originally Posted by iopq

Originally Posted by Da GOAT

i wrote out a tilted response but deleted it. op last post tilts me 'alot' like dumb and dumber 'alot''

I tend to have that effect on people

its all good

Originally Posted by Luke999

Originally Posted by Galapogos

Originally Posted by mcatdog

Griffey - so your default assumption is that someone with 25/19 stats has no clue about position, and you need to actually see him make a fairly standard play before you give him credit for being capable of it?

I've been mucking around at 100NL lately retooling my game and hiding from a downswing. I would say it is definitely best to assume these players including the ones with decent-ish stats, at this limit, are incapable of 3 betting light and do not understand position.

100% agree

where the hell do you guys play?

Originally Posted by Ash256

Originally Posted by Luke999

Originally Posted by Galapogos

Originally Posted by mcatdog

Griffey - so your default assumption is that someone with 25/19 stats has no clue about position, and you need to actually see him make a fairly standard play before you give him credit for being capable of it?

I've been mucking around at 100NL lately retooling my game and hiding from a downswing. I would say it is definitely best to assume these players including the ones with decent-ish stats, at this limit, are incapable of 3 betting light and do not understand position.

100% agree

where the hell do you guys play?

seriously. 3betting fairly light/squeezing was common even at nl50 atleast at full tilt.

Originally Posted by bode

Originally Posted by Ash256

Originally Posted by Luke999

Originally Posted by Galapogos

Originally Posted by mcatdog

Griffey - so your default assumption is that someone with 25/19 stats has no clue about position, and you need to actually see him make a fairly standard play before you give him credit for being capable of it?

I've been mucking around at 100NL lately retooling my game and hiding from a downswing. I would say it is definitely best to assume these players including the ones with decent-ish stats, at this limit, are incapable of 3 betting light and do not understand position.

100% agree

where the hell do you guys play?

seriously. 3betting fairly light/squeezing was common even at nl50 atleast at full tilt.

stars regs suck lol

Is that because Stars doesn't have a formal rakeback program?

50nl does not have squeezers imo

Originally Posted by Da GOAT

50nl does not have squeezers imo

FTP 50NL does, I played there this year

Originally Posted by iopq

Originally Posted by Da GOAT

50nl does not have squeezers imo

FTP 50NL does, I played there this year

yeah, it most definitely does. Stars and FTP atleast.

Set me up with an account wherever you play when you get done helping out 3tanes.

50nl does have squeezers

I found very few on my site. I could have identified by name the guys I thought capable of squeezing at 50nl. I dont believe there was a single one other than myself 4-bet bluffing (except the occassional maniac who only had a bet/raise button of course).

Obviously on Everest the reg/tag pool is much smaller.

Probably sample size issue but I haven't seen alot of squeezing at all at 100NL on FTP in the couple of days I've been playing there lately. There's light 3-betting of single opens and isoraises for sure, but once there's a raise and a call it seems people are pretty honest. Which is nice since it allows for more loose preflop calls IP.

Originally Posted by HalvSame

Probably sample size issue but I haven't seen alot of squeezing at all at 100NL on FTP in the couple of days I've been playing there lately. There's light 3-betting of single opens and isoraises for sure, but once there's a raise and a call it seems people are pretty honest. Which is nice since it allows for more loose preflop calls IP.

that makes no sense because it's not like you're super worried about the guy who called a raise since he's in there with like low pps most of the time or a hand that's not worth 3bing
I haven't seen anyone other than me flat and then backraise a squeezer
I had KQs on the CO, and I shipped it in after a squeeze
since he folded he must have been bluffing therefore proving my point that people squeeze at 50NL

Well im mucking around on celeb poker atm. It's all 5max, nearly everybody at 50nl and 100nl (which is like 100nl and 200nl in $'s) constantly plays OOP with crap. Seriously most people are like 45/35's and shit.

Originally Posted by Luke999

Well im mucking around on celeb poker atm. It's all 5max, nearly everybody at 50nl and 100nl (which is like 100nl and 200nl in $'s) constantly plays OOP with crap. Seriously most people are like 45/35's and shit.

yeah you're playing on a euro room
FTP and Stars are the toughest poker sites on the internet to play on because that's where all the best US regs play

Originally Posted by iopq

FTP and Stars are the toughest poker sites on the internet to play on because that's where all the best US regs play

Originally Posted by iopq

Originally Posted by Luke999

Well im mucking around on celeb poker atm. It's all 5max, nearly everybody at 50nl and 100nl (which is like 100nl and 200nl in $'s) constantly plays OOP with crap. Seriously most people are like 45/35's and shit.

yeah you're playing on a euro room
FTP and Stars are the toughest poker sites on the internet to play on because that's where all the best US regs play

Yeah I do play on them just because of the software. But euro sites are a lot easier I find just cuz everyone seems to be a spaz :P

Originally Posted by bjsaust

I found very few on my site. I could have identified by name the guys I thought capable of squeezing at 50nl. I dont believe there was a single one other than myself 4-bet bluffing (except the occassional maniac who only had a bet/raise button of course).

Obviously on Everest the reg/tag pool is much smaller.

Since this thread is way off topic, I'll delve into the rabbit hole a little further. Bjsaust, I can't see how 4bet bluffing could be at all profitable given the description you gave of your regs/site.

Back to the sub-topic, I find plenty of regs 3betting light and squeezing at Pstars 100NL. That said, most of them are fairly poor postflop or at adjusting.

Now that said, I would still fold KJs to the sqz here. Since his sqz range still crushes your hand. Postflop, this guy is not 3 barrel bluffing here like ever especially this deep & you hold essentially a bluff catcher.

Originally Posted by Silly String

Originally Posted by bjsaust

I found very few on my site. I could have identified by name the guys I thought capable of squeezing at 50nl. I dont believe there was a single one other than myself 4-bet bluffing (except the occassional maniac who only had a bet/raise button of course).

Obviously on Everest the reg/tag pool is much smaller.

Since this thread is way off topic, I'll delve into the rabbit hole a little further. Bjsaust, I can't see how 4bet bluffing could be at all profitable given the description you gave of your regs/site.

yeah but those people could be 3bing one raiser, in which case 4b bluffing is effective if they 3b light against one person

Euro sites are harder than us sites from my experience of actually playing at them

Think std 2+2 tag reg whos stuck at 50nl. 3bet bluffing is how you win poker dude!!! We pwn those noobs who dont read 2+2 because we do and we 3-bet bluff man!!! Those noobs are so easy to play because if they ever 4-bet they have the nutz and since we only 3-bet QQ+,AK for value the rest of our 7% (12% in the blinds coz we 3-betz button raises lotz dude!!) is pure air we're happy to fold coz they must have AA coz they're noobz and they dont read 2+2!!! Lolz, they probably havnt even watched that video by that unimaginative forum troll who did all the 3-bet bluffing!!


Or you know, something like that. Maybe I'm just lucky but I'd be lucky to have 10% of my 4bet bluffs called/raised. Lots of 3-bet bluffing, but probably only 4 or 5 of them squeezing light.

I did the 4b shoving thing for a while
never lost a stack doing it, once got it in AK vs. 88 and that was the only time I got called and won the flip

I still do it against people who are like 3bing monkeys because they might spaz out and shove against a small 4b... which is why of course I do it stronger when I do it small (tell no one)

Originally Posted by Da GOAT

Euro sites are harder than us sites from my experience of actually playing at them

lololol. i love when people say this. Take a look at all the graphs/HH's/etc posted on here and 2+2 comparing the 2 and this is far from the truth. I think Party is harder than it used to be, but its still supposed to be softer than stars/ftp. but places like ipoker/crypto or whatever other eurotrash sites are way softer.

I don't get that at all.

Yes, some of them do squeeze and 3-bet light and have some idea of position and blind defense around 50-100NL,... but they're still terribad.
I could play any euro site, but atm I'm very happy with FTP because being realistic... how much softer can it possibly get?

I'll register at titan or redkings this week to get HEM-omaha and clear the bonus... I'll see for myself.
but srzly... do they just throw money in your face and run or sumthin'?

Originally Posted by oskar

I don't get that at all.

Yes, some of them do squeeze and 3-bet light and have some idea of position and blind defense around 50-100NL,... but they're still terribad.
I could play any euro site, but atm I'm very happy with FTP because being realistic... how much softer can it possibly get?

I'll register at titan or redkings this week to get HEM-omaha and clear the bonus... I'll see for myself.
but srzly... do they just throw money in your face and run or sumthin'?

idk, I'm finding FTP NL100 filled with hudbots

I hudbots.

More importantly, who's the girl in your avatar, Bbickes? She's hot in a nerdy way.

Originally Posted by oskar

but srzly... do they just throw money in your face and run or sumthin'?

tbh, yes some of them do. I cant really compare because the only time I played on FTP was a small mix of 10nl and 25nl when I was just starting to learn cash. Since then I've been on Euro sites and they're overall pretty soft, although generally more in the sense that its not that hard to find the fish. I guess if the same fish are on FTP and Stars it wouldnt be a lot different. I barely even bother with reg wars beyond enough 3/4 bet bluffing to keep an image up.