2/4 & 3/6 - Three river spots

My first session in a month, shaking off the rust.

1. Villain is running 17/14/3.2 over 500 hands, only history is that I 4bet bluffed him from button a few orbits earlier and folded to his shove.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $4.00 BB (5 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

Button ($513)
Hero (SB) ($824.40)
BB ($1242.60)
UTG ($474.40)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9, 10
2 folds, Hero raises to $14, BB calls $10

Flop: ($28) J, Q, 8 (2 players)
Hero bets $22, BB calls $22

Turn: ($72) 5 (2 players)
Hero bets $60, BB calls $60

River: ($192) 5 (2 players)
Hero...

2. Villain's running 26/19/1.9 over 1.3k hands, he's a weird, trappy, probably losing player. Earlier in the session he raised 85s utg, I flatted AQo from the bb, he checked behind a fd on an A-high flop, I c/c'ed the Q flush turn and a blank river to his slightly overpot bets.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $6.00 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

UTG ($567.75)
MP ($791)
Hero (CO) ($600)
Button ($658.50)
SB ($225)
BB ($647.40)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 7, A
2 folds, Hero raises to $21, Button calls $21, 2 folds

Flop: ($51) 8, J, 2 (2 players)
Hero bets $42, Button calls $42

Turn: ($135) A (2 players)
Hero bets $111, Button calls $111

River: ($357) 7 (2 players)
Hero...

3. Villain is running 32/20/1.9 over 200 hands and seems bad. A few orbits earlier he complete/rr'ed the sb in a bvb with Q8s and we checked down a Axx two-tone Qx board, I had JJ.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $4.00 BB (5 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

Hero (BB) ($753)
UTG ($291)
MP ($422)
Button ($925)
SB ($1322.80)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J, A
3 folds, SB calls $2, Hero raises to $14, SB calls $10

Flop: ($28) A, 7, 8 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $24, SB calls $24

Turn: ($76) 6 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $60, SB calls $60

River: ($196) 6 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero...

I think all three are pretty standard bets, sooo...

1- medium size bet
2- big bet
3- smaller bet

Originally Posted by Alexos

I think all three are pretty standard bets, sooo...

1- medium size bet
2- big bet
3- smaller bet

1) b/f
2) I like shove or bet medium size. I think he's bluffcatching with a J a lot so I don't like standard big value bet.
3) small bet

Yah definitely gotta bet all 3.

hand 1 - I suppose this is a bet/fold given how deep we are, but I can't imagine him having a boat here ever given flop/turn play. I like 130ish here

Hand 2 - 300ish, especially if its possible this villain has Axxclubs

Hand 3 - Yah I like half pot here, 100ish

Hand 2 and 3 are def b/f's, but I'm not entirely convinced on 1.

Ok, these are boring, sorry. Clearly my choosing hands to post skills need work after the month layoff.

Results:
1. I bet $160, villain calls with Q8s.
2. I shove for ~$430, villain folds.
3. I bet $111, villain flat calls with 77 LOL.

1. i don't know whats best, so i guess i'd just bet 136 or something. Cant really see him having a boat, so i'd call a raise, but i'd honestly expect him to raise nearly never so it would still be a tough spot

2. something irks me about your turn betsize, but i can't justify why so i won't try to. river i can only see betting, question is what amount and whether to call the shove. I would probably bet like 85 and call the shove vs this player.

3. i would bet fold for half pot



p.s. i now know what was bugging me about hte turn bet in hand two, and i think we've talked about this before. You seem to choose betsizes on flop and turn (and the 3.5x preflop causes this too) that causes awkward potsize conditions on the river.

Originally Posted by Renton

p.s. i now know what was bugging me about hte turn bet in hand two, and i think we've talked about this before. You seem to choose betsizes on flop and turn (and the 3.5x preflop causes this too) that causes awkward potsize conditions on the river.

I don't find having 1.2x pot on the river that awkward, but what's your solution? $125ish on the turn?

well the way i play i'd have bet smaller on every street, i suppose in your case you coudl have at least bet smaller on turn.

Originally Posted by Renton

well the way i play i'd have bet smaller on every street, i suppose in your case you coudl have at least bet smaller on turn.

how do you ever win stacks?

Originally Posted by Renton

well the way i play i'd have bet smaller on every street, i suppose in your case you coudl have at least bet smaller on turn.

stack to pot ratio obsession?

id say you're losing money because of it

Alesos, you mind just mentioning why you say medium bet on 1 and big bet on 2? Not sure if I understand the reasoning.

I'm guessing it's medium on 1 because we dont want him to fold a one pair hand but I can't figure out why just bet standard big on 2 unless you're assigning more Ax to his range than I am? Is his range not mostly Jx and missed draws?

bet like 95 on the river in hand 1

Originally Posted by zook

Originally Posted by Renton

well the way i play i'd have bet smaller on every street, i suppose in your case you coudl have at least bet smaller on turn.

how do you ever win stacks?

probably win less stacks than you do. But im probably given a lot more +ev options than you are on early streets, such as 4b bluffing pre, double barreling, triple barreling, thinly vbing, and my cbets probably show a greater profit than yours.

i don't know if it evens out.

Originally Posted by Renton

Originally Posted by zook

Originally Posted by Renton

well the way i play i'd have bet smaller on every street, i suppose in your case you coudl have at least bet smaller on turn.

how do you ever win stacks?

probably win less stacks than you do. But im probably given a lot more +ev options than you are on early streets, such as 4b bluffing pre, double barreling, triple barreling, thinly vbing, and my cbets probably show a greater profit than yours.

i don't know if it evens out.

how can you say that, you have no idea how i play...

I'm just saying, on a drawy board like hand 2, how can you justify betting smaller on each street? And I was wondering if it has anything to do with s/p ratio, but you still havnt answered that. As in, if your stack was $500 eff, would you still bet smaller on each street?

Betting big here on a drawy board allows us to shove river, which is a slight overbet, when all draws have missed, and villain is super likely to make a hero call.

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

Alesos, you mind just mentioning why you say medium bet on 1 and big bet on 2? Not sure if I understand the reasoning.

I'm guessing it's medium on 1 because we dont want him to fold a one pair hand but I can't figure out why just bet standard big on 2 unless you're assigning more Ax to his range than I am? Is his range not mostly Jx and missed draws?

my reasoning is that our ranges have more draws in hand 2 than in hand 1. Our range in 1 has a lot less air then in 2, so i bet somewhat smaller since villain can't put me on a lot of missed draws. In 2, everything misses, i can rep a bunch of missed draws that villain can hero call me with, so i bet bigger. Yea i think he has alot of Ax and Jx even that might call, idk i just tend to overbet in these spots and hope they get curious. I guess you could also 1/3 pot and hope they spazz out or something but i don't do that as often.

Originally Posted by nutsinho

Originally Posted by Alexos

I think all three are pretty standard bets, sooo...

1- medium size bet
2- big bet
3- smaller bet

Originally Posted by Alexos

how can you say that, you have no idea how i play...

i was responding to zook?

Originally Posted by Alexos

I'm just saying, on a drawy board like hand 2, how can you justify betting smaller on each street? And I was wondering if it has anything to do with s/p ratio, but you still havnt answered that. As in, if your stack was $500 eff, would you still bet smaller on each street?

Betting big here on a drawy board allows us to shove river, which is a slight overbet, when all draws have missed, and villain is super likely to make a hero call.

It has vaguely to do with stack/pot ratio, but additionally I feel that a slightly smaller bet would be better on the flop for a couple of reasons:

- theres higher likelihood of us getting lightly raised with a 36 bet than a 42 imo, enhancing the profitability of our 3-bet

- theres higher likelihood of us getting lightly called, which is good since we're following like 80% of turns, enhancing the profitability of the second barrel

- the s/p ratio is such on the flop that we can't get all in in 3-bets without overbetting


As for the turn, I'd go with a slightly smaller bet (like 95) because I think thats a more successful bet with some of the other hands in my range that im betting (such as Jx or air). Also I believe that your river overbet shove with tpwk when the draws brick is a little ambitious.

Yes though, having 500 eff would be an added incentive to bet larger. Don't forget I'm talking about 1-3bb differences in the betsizes i'd have chosen and zook's. I don't play radically different.

fair enough!

Btw we have two pair...

well, you were saying you'd plan to overbet shove a blank river, right? as in we only have one pair on turn, so on most blanks we'd just have one pair.