2/4 - AKo in BB deep - two-part question

UTG seems like a good lagg, but I haven't played much against him (28/23/3.7 over a large sample). CO is a bad loose passive (42/2/0.5 over 100 hands). Button is a solid regular (20/15/4 over a ton of hands) I've played with a lot. SB is bad and loose (50/10/3 over 200 hands).

My image shouldn't be too bad, but I've playing my usual aggressive game, running ~28/20 and raising to isolate CO and SB a lot.

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Holdem Ring game - Blinds: $2/$4 - 6 players - Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $481.60
UTG+1: $443
CO: $722.20
Button: $1063.40
SB: $161.85
Hero: $859.10

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is BB with A K
UTG raises to $14, UTG+1 folds, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls, Hero...

Another part to come.

i nominate this for most screwed up hand/situation ever. we got 3 guys in the hand that are 200BB, everyone's coming for a ride and we got AKo....boooo, and 2 of them are good players (why are you at this table anyways?)

damn, dunno....by calling, even if i flop a A or K i'm not too happy about it. with 3 CCers the probability of getting toasted by a set increases. we're not suited so we don't have a potential flush backup.

i vote for 3bet hard and fold to a push.

Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi

(why are you at this table anyways?)

CO & SB are buddylist horrible and SB had over 200bb when I sat down. UTG only sat down an orbit or two ago.

This is actually a great table for 2/4 at FT. There are good regulars everywhere and fish are few and far between.

Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi

i nominate this for most screwed up hand/situation ever.

Just wait

Raise 80?

ummm raise y r u even asking this?

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is BB with A K
UTG raises to $14, UTG+1 folds, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls, Hero raises to $80, UTG calls, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls.

Flop: A J 4 ($400, 5 players)
SB checks, Hero...

Damn that's a lot of callers, this is pretty sick.
But you gotta like the flop I guess. Not very likey someone has JJ, maybe UTG and I guess anyone could have 44.
I think you gotta fire here, I'd bet $250.

wow...this is horrible.

i'm gonna lump all of the villains as one. their hand ranges are...
most likly: JJ, AK, AQ
less likely: AJ, KQ, AA, KK, QQ (i think those big pairs would not play like they did preflop, likewise AJ/KQ are too weak to continue after your 3bet)
in for kicks: 22-TT (set value...right? right???)

i'm worried about JJ here, i think any player preflop given their action can sanely have JJ.

i'm actually going to check this flop and see what the other guys do. it's a scary flop for any underpair against 3 guys.

ok- so if u bet u stack any ace i donno maybe one of the really shitty players will give u action with Jx or QQ or a gutty or somethin equally ugly, and needless to say u get stacked by sets AJ

if u check u give free cards which really really suck when pot is this big and so many players so probably lead for 200 call shove is my line here as ur hand is not super well defined and a C/R is so ugly here.

Originally Posted by sauce123

ok- so if u bet u stack any ace i donno maybe one of the really shitty players will give u action with Jx or QQ or a gutty or somethin equally ugly, and needless to say u get stacked by sets AJ

if u check u give free cards which really really suck when pot is this big and so many players so probably lead for 200 call shove is my line here as ur hand is not super well defined and a C/R is so ugly here.

maybe it's more aggressive at higher limits, but i don't logically see anyone taking a stab at this pot with less than AK. if you're betting, it seems like it's only pushed over by better hands, so why are you calling?

Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi

Originally Posted by sauce123

ok- so if u bet u stack any ace i donno maybe one of the really shitty players will give u action with Jx or QQ or a gutty or somethin equally ugly, and needless to say u get stacked by sets AJ

if u check u give free cards which really really suck when pot is this big and so many players so probably lead for 200 call shove is my line here as ur hand is not super well defined and a C/R is so ugly here.

maybe it's more aggressive at higher limits, but i don't logically see anyone taking a stab at this pot with less than AK. if you're betting, it seems like it's only pushed over by better hands, so why are you calling?

I agree, besides AQ maybe, I don't see anything we beat shoving, I would bet/fold.

if you fold this to a push after betting then the only hand you can call with is AA as you also fold KK, and you probably wouldn't raise preflop like this with AJ.

surely this would be seriously exploitable?

Good point MuddyWicket. For me that's some heavy next level thinking though, but I'm far from playing these levels anyway.

At first I was thinking;
Besides AQ, what hands we beat could push this flop? You really think KK or QQ are pushing? It's about the same as pushing 72 in this spot imo.

But thinking through:
Pushing with any 2 cards against our range at this point would be good, because besides AA we would fold anything if you b/f this flop with AK. And because of that, we should call a push.

Are people really thinking this deep though? And have the guts to act on it in a 5-way pot?

Originally Posted by MuddyWicket

if you fold this to a push after betting then the only hand you can call with is AA as you also fold KK, and you probably wouldn't raise preflop like this with AJ.

surely this would be seriously exploitable?

as exploitable as every hand where we have 5 people to the flop where it was 3bet preflop.

Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi

as exploitable as every hand where we have 5 people to the flop where it was 3bet preflop.

Yeah, it's like being exploitable because you always fold royal flushes.. who cares, it doesn't affect your winrate.

fair points. Still learning cash and the vast depths of deep BB.

I'm struggling to see hands that stay in this pot that beat you. Surely AJ fold to the preflop raise? AA/44 feel unlikely to me and anyone raising your bet could be a cheeky AK/AQ. Maybe its the sng player in me that doesn't want to fold this.

disconnect


In all seriousness tho, I think I'm stacking off on this flop with AK even 200bb+ deep. I don't think you could see a better flop for your hand for the fact that the likelihood of JJ is discounted and it's a rainbow board.

Originally Posted by MuddyWicket

Surely AJ fold to the preflop raise?

If you're in the SB and have AQ, or AJ suited or any hand that you called the initial raise with. Then it gets repopped and EVERYONE in front of you called the re-raise, I think you would be very tempted to call hands like this to see what you flop, given the odds you're getting.

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

disconnect


In all seriousness tho, I think I'm stacking off on this flop with AK even 200bb+ deep. I don't think you could see a better flop for your hand for the fact that the likelihood of JJ is discounted and it's a rainbow board.

why are you discounting JJ?

bet $100 - give people some room to try and bluff or call with middle pair/gutshot - call a raise depending on who it is that raises and to what.

Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

disconnect


In all seriousness tho, I think I'm stacking off on this flop with AK even 200bb+ deep. I don't think you could see a better flop for your hand for the fact that the likelihood of JJ is discounted and it's a rainbow board.

why are you discounting JJ?

Cuz I wanna

Actually b/c I think it gets 3bet at this level a lot

BUMMMMMMMMMMMMMP

classic wa/wb. And there are only gutshots on the board, in a protected pot, And OOP to boot. This is why it's sometimes good to have a weak flop lead in your repetioir. I'd still be worried LAG goes nuclear.

I can see why you want to bet (to thin the field, mostly - I don't think you are getting much value from worse hands), but this is a tough hand to play OOP. I would probably just check.

Umm... I was an idiot when I first posted this thread and wrote that it was a multi-part question. It's only a two-part question b/c I chose possibly the worst of all options and pushed. (Although I think checking could be worse than pushing.)

After reading responses I think I like a $150-$200 bet, call a push best.

sooooooooooooooo?

omg tell me what happened

Results in beige:

All folds except SB who calls with KJo. I scoop 140bb pot despite playing it like a moron. I pump my fist and laugh, but on the inside, I cry.