2/4 I have no idea what to do here...

LOL I'm so confused as to what I should do on this turn. I can't think of one bet size I like and checking just doesn't seem good to me. If you wanna bet make sure you say how much you wanna bet, the biggest problem IMO is effective stack sizes.

Both villains are regulars, nothing else to note of importance IMO.
They should assume I'm playing a straightforward game and I don't have any recent c/r'ing history w/ either of them.

No-Limit Hold'em, $4.00 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

SB ($191.70)
Hero (BB) ($515)
UTG ($447)
MP ($412)
CO ($931.10)
Button ($419)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 2, 2
1 fold, MP bets $12, 1 fold, Button calls $12, 1 fold, Hero calls $8

Flop: ($38) J, 2, 9 (3 players)
Hero checks, MP checks, Button bets $28, Hero raises $84, MP calls $84, Button calls $56

Turn: ($290) 10 (3 players)

Total pot: $290

Just insta check fold obv. MP can only have a set here.

His line does blow my mind though, In reality I shove turn though I know that must be super-bad.

i just can't see any line but shoving

shove no other way

rub-a-dub-dub-a-timebank-shove-in-a-tub

You should have raised bigger on the flop so your jam is less than pot imo. As played definitely jam though.

Originally Posted by meeloche

You should have raised bigger on the flop so your jam is less than pot imo.

anticipating a coldcall would be impressive.

Shoving I think is pretty stupid. I basically turn my hand into a bluff as absolutely nothing worse calls me. Please arguments for something other than shove or c/f.

Originally Posted by Renton

Originally Posted by meeloche

You should have raised bigger on the flop so your jam is less than pot imo.

anticipating a coldcall would be impressive.

2nd.

Could you see him playing a hand like AQ/AKhh this way?

His line just seems quite absurd. Playing an overpair this way is just horribad obviously so I can only assume he has a set and hoping to get it in on a blank turn when both you guys lose a ton of equity and are obviously pretty priced in with a draw.

Originally Posted by Renton

Originally Posted by meeloche

You should have raised bigger on the flop so your jam is less than pot imo.

anticipating a coldcall would be impressive.

Yah but raising small, OOP, on a drawy board where its waay more likely that you have a FD/combo draw than twopair/set on this board ,is less impressive.

Raise to like 95-100, as you might with KQhh, 78hh, QThh etc etc. As played, just jam and give him a headache with Qxhh, Txhh, 8xhh.

what about c/jam the turn? and yeah raise flop a bit bigger on such an ugly board but i don't think bet/calling 180ish on the turn would be bad either. I definitely think you can have the best hand here a significant amount of time still and noone's folding what is now probably a huge combo draw which you're still well ahead of.

and to reiterate, i don't think c/jamming turns your hand into a bluff at all. What sets are cold calling on that board if the guy is a semi-standard tag with a guy behind him and you have outs vs kq.

Sorry, how exactly is raising 3x small ????

I could c/shove but who exactly am I expecting to bet if I check?
Starting to like the idea a little better since if it does check around I allow myself to get more value on the river if it bricks off whereas I just see zero value in shoving the turn. Why do you guys think a combo draw is going to call it off on the turn but not shove the flop? That's a super inconsistent line of thought.

because you can be going nuts with suited hearts like QT 8T KT A9 Q9 and the button can definitely have J9 or T9 or even AA-QQ that was looking for you to squeeze from the blinds

Originally Posted by Marshall28

Sorry, how exactly is raising 3x small ????.

It isn't.

It's so silly when people's flop raising range is sets, top two pair and combo draws and they think that means their range is "balanced" oh and they raise all those hands huge, 4x or more. If your range is 100% hands that are happy to get all in, you are not balanced, you are a huge nit. And I guess if you're a nit and people know exactly what your range is at all times then you might as well raise more so they can't use position against you. But when you can have gutters, weak flush draws like 54hh planning on folding to a 3bet, or even complete air, that's when you actually have a balanced range. If we had one of those hands we would probably raise the flop 3x to get a better price on our bluff and thus we do the same with 22 here.

I think the cold caller has a set sometimes but not that often to be honest. On this board if he had 99 or JJ and somehow checked the flop I feel like he'd put you on a bunch of hands that want to get it in on the flop and just cold 3-bet most of the time. It's more likely he checked a fairly strong hand to induce shenanigans and believed both of you would play straightforward against a cold-call that isn't as strong as it looks on the surface. I'd shove the turn.

You don't need to absolutely bomb it but like 95-100 is better imo. Unless you changed into a super nit I don't get how you think your bluffing if you jam turn. AJ, J9, 9h10h KJ Qh10h MP can also have QQ, KK, AA thats unsure what do do. I'm sure there are more combos I'm forgetting as well. People don't fold as much as you give them credit for marshall. I'm also expecting JJ or 99 to jam flop some of the time. He also never has 1010. Just jam pretty quickly make your hand look like a draw like ravengeur mentioned.

They are probably also more likely to call a jam then if you bet small I think.

very easy jam, any other option sucks

Originally Posted by Marshall28

Sorry, how exactly is raising 3x small ????

I could c/shove but who exactly am I expecting to bet if I check?
Starting to like the idea a little better since if it does check around I allow myself to get more value on the river if it bricks off whereas I just see zero value in shoving the turn. Why do you guys think a combo draw is going to call it off on the turn but not shove the flop? That's a super inconsistent line of thought.

Because people are passive? Some ppl are nits and don't want to flip with huge hands like oesfd etc....and yes i think some ppl will be betting the turn when checked to with QQ+ because they don't think you're checking better hands that often and want to protect.

You shove, it's way better than checking. BU could have J9, seems very possible that both players have fds.

If everybody seems to think all in is best it likely is the best option. I just put myself in the other two players shoes and thought that I wouldn't call anything that I just called w/ on the flop if I were them and the BB shoved here.

Anyways, at the time I bet 140, MP folded and BTN called again. River was 8 of clubs.

check fold

i think even if worse never calls its still a shove. Quite a big pot to give free/cheap cards.

Originally Posted by Marshall28

I bet 140, MP folded and BTN called again. River was 8 of clubs.

I don't really get this sizing. Are you calling if one of them shoves?

You're giving all the combo draws correct odds on their call, and also still probably stacking of (b/c) vs all the better hands that you worry about calling a shove in the first place.

Yeah $140 makes no sense, it's not like they're going to think your range is weaker if you bet $140 than if you shove. They'll put you on the same range but it just gives them more options to outplay you in position.

I agree with Renton on it being a shove even if worse hands never call.