2/4 - KK - dumb/weird hand

-villain in this hand is reg on stars slammed fire
-he runs around 21/18/5.1 (mega high AF)
-he's the type that NEVER calls and always raises. If you raise his flop cbet, he jams allin over it with overs, draws and even sets. He's just shipping over flop raises a lot
-I've never seen him OPEN jam on a flop before though
-this session he cbet bvb, I raised 89hh on 653hh board and he shoved over with AQcc and I got there
-he calls 3bets IP but folds to most of mine when I 3bet him IP. Plan here given previous hand was to raise his cbet again, and let him level himself into something dumb
-this hand was the next hand we had together

if you call or fold with this hand, what range are we calling with?

$2/$4 No Limit Holdem
6 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($475.60)
UTG+1 ($439.50)
CO ($564.90)
Hero (BTN) ($400)
SB ($1,864.45)
BB ($913.25)

Pre-Flop: ($6, 6 players) Hero is BTN
UTG raises to $12, 2 folds, Hero calls $12, 2 folds

Flop: ($30, 2 players)
UTG bets $463.60

(edit: I forgot to mention this, and not sure how important it might be. But his flop shove was INSTA.. almost as insta as possible)

You can have him destroyed here so much plus ur almost always in decent shape. Seems like a snapcall.

Man I've only played a little bit with slammedfire but with the little I've played with slammed I couldn't possibly imagine ever ever ever folding here.

ok I thought I might get a few snap calls.

What range are we calling here? TT+ with a spade? QQ, KK no spade? AsKx?

He's a monkey call, plus your not even in that bad shape if for some reason your behind.

Range would be something like 99 plus w spade jj plus without

i doubt AA with no spade has the almost 50% equity required to make this call.

KsKx is in the very bottom of my calling range here

is there any chance he misclicked? I think the range i assigned was too wide though yeah, maybe something closer to JsJx.

This seems like the dumbest bet ever by this guy. Looks like a call, though.

I think there is a gigantic chance he misclicked but you still have to be ahead of a leading range. I'd call with this hand for sure

lol trust me he didn't misclick. its slammedfire, he's infamous in the full ring community for shit like this.

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

I think there is a gigantic chance he misclicked but you still have to be ahead of a leading range. I'd call with this hand for sure

He actually didn't lead, he was the PFR and I flatted KK on the button. So his cbet was simply an overbet shove.

Yah I agree with renton, he 100% didn't misclick.

I think with KKs, it's a meh whatevs call. But I'd have a tough time with KK,AA here and no spade, or even QQs or something.

I feel like if I'm ahead, it's probably mostly to a hand like AsJ or something that I'm only flipping with.

K, I play way lower than you guys so completely ignore me if you wish but I was thinking about this in the shower just now and think of it very differently.

21/18/5.1 is a lot different than a friday night drunken donk. This guy didn't say do you know what? griffey24 hit that river on me last hand when I was donking so Im going to repay him by shipping TT here against his range that either folds so I win 25$ or has me drawing to a couple outs.

From his perspective he is probably semi tilted and sees you as knowing that. He wants his money back and he ships the flop with AsXx, made flushes, 88, 66, 33, a range that you cannot profitably call against obviously. The fact that your considering a call here makes it seem like it isn't too bad a play by him.

I think you are all agreeing he doesn't have complete garbage with this play and why would he do this with something like TT that could have a couple streets of value but dominated when the flop gets shipped a lot of the time?

Also if you are calling with Kk why aren't you calling with 99? he is never doing this with 99-QQ IMO, is it so close that you call kk but not 99 because his AsJx has an extra over? If its that close then Id say its a fold...

Originally Posted by eragotte

From his perspective he is probably semi tilted and sees you as knowing that. He wants his money back and he ships the flop with AsXx, made flushes, 88, 66, 33, a range that you cannot profitably call against obviously. The fact that your considering a call here makes it seem like it isn't too bad a play by him.

I don't think you're looking at this right. Sure, you could be right, his range could be suuuper narrow as stated. And yes, I might be calling here with KKs and getting owned by his potentially tight range. But his play is still so bad, despite the fact I'm wanting to call KKs.

As it stands, if he bets normally on 3 streets with his 'tight range' here, then I'd still probably end up losing 60ish bb's with KKs. However there's a huge part of my range (8x, 99+, 79, KsQ, Asx) that would lose around 20bbs potentially if he bets normally on the flop/turn. The number of combos of those hands way outnumbers the very few combos that will call and stackoff for 100bbs.

coles notes: his play is getting him 100bbs from ~1% of my range (1bb expected) instead of 20bbs from ~20% of my range (4bb expected). (this isn't even accounting for the fact that when I call the 100bb shove I have equity in the pot often)

Ya, so I guess moreso it isn't too bad a play by him if he could see your hole cards, assuming he has a nutty hand which I still think he almost always does. His overall EV is smaller overall by a lot as you said, but that may look okay to him since he could be semi tilted and is thinking he wants his BI back.

I feel like this is more of a snap call if you got check/raised here because he has more incentive to monkey. An open shove from a maybe wreckless but seemingly competent player here is just angry with the nuts..

its just a weird spot because its a terrible risk/reward as a bluff, so it looks all value to me, like he thinks he can shove here and get you to pay off more than with a 'typical' line, thinking you will hero call

results imo

Originally Posted by mixchange

results imo

JTss for the open shove ownage :P

then you rivered the 4th spade for total pwnage, amirite?

Originally Posted by GatorJH

then you rivered the 4th spade for total pwnage, amirite?

haha I wish!

I actually snap called (ldo) but afterwards, seeing him actually show up with a flush there made me question how much of a snap it really is. Hence the posting.