2/4: river c/r faces jam

Villain is a good LAG reg. Not really any dynamic between us.

SB ($553)
Hero ($400)
UTG ($400)
UTG+1 ($782)
CO ($424)
BTN ($628)

Dealt to Hero K Q
fold, fold, CO raises to $12, fold, fold, Hero calls $8

FLOP ($26) 3 4 3
Hero checks, CO bets $21, Hero calls $21

TURN ($68) 3 4 3 T
Hero checks, CO checks

RIVER ($68) 3 4 3 T J
Hero checks, CO bets $42, Hero raises to $156, CO raises to $391 (AI), Hero snaps it off???

What is his double barrel freq?

I'd expect a LAG to barrel JJ here a reasonable amount, regardless of the heart dropping.

He's repping so ridiculously narrow. Wouldn't put it past someone shoving with Ahx here on the river, though I'd also expect that hand to barrel.

I find it hard to find a fold here when he reps JJ and only JJ.

So you think it's absolutely 100% discounted that he didn't check back quads or a boat on the turn?

I think its impossible for him to be bluffing when he takes this line, esp when you bomb it like this.

I'd just fold and be exploited, whatever.

snap folds it off. Never seen someone take this line as a bluff, ever.

I would expect some sort of slow play way more from a nit/tag than a lag. I'd also expect a slow play more with history, than without history.

Though I'd agree with Alex that it really doesn't seem like a very bluffy line.

I'd rather lead river than c/r, since I don't know how often he's b/c with many hands in his range (is KJ really b/c here?). That being said, I'd like a river c/r bluff.

For anyone reading most threads, it will become clear that all you have to do is check back any street and I won't believe anything you do after that point!

edit: are we folding 4's full here?

With no history I doubt he would expect you to fold what you have, and smaller flushes would be bluffcatchers to him here. Without further information I'd say fold.

So... are you villain in this one

Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

So... are you villain in this one

I am.

Hero folded, don't know what he had. My guess is something like 55-77 or A4s. I'm pretty sure he would have chosen to lead river with hearts or something like A2cc.

I couldn't post that I'm villain because everyone would say lolsnapcall and this thread would be meaningless.

What did you have?

The only reason I'd convince myself to call here some of the time is that if villain is good, he probably recognizes that we rarely have TT/JJ after not 3betting pre. Probably c/r Axhh a good percentage of the time on the flop. So our range that can call here is very narrow, to 44 and 33 (and we might even c/r flop some of the time with those as well).

Vs most villains that aren't capable of running something ridiculous, this is a fold. Vs P4's.. I'd call

Are you guys joking? CO is repping absolutely nothing, I don't think I fold anything here.

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

Are you guys joking? CO is repping absolutely nothing, I don't think I fold anything here.

i think he's repping the nuts pretty clearly, and since <1% of ppl have the ballz to have a bluff here, it's a pretty easy fold.

Originally Posted by Alexos

i think he's repping the nuts pretty clearly, and since <1% of ppl have the ballz to have a bluff here, it's a pretty easy fold.

I understand the nittiness of 6 max cash games, but the reads given were that opp was lag. Versus anyone who has the remote ability to press the all in button without a nut hand on the river, this is a call. There are a bajillion air hands in CO's range when the river is dealt, but I cannot think of one nut hand that is played this way a majority of the time. I think if CO did check the turn with a nut hand or JJ, it was a very bad play. Nonetheless, although opponents play hands very badly sometimes, I'd put it at a very low weight. You can't get a better hero call spot with opps range. Tons of hands with no showdown value in his range with zero nut hands in his range. Our guesses on our opponents motivations and thought processes of "lag" are not going to outweigh his range in this situation.

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

I understand the nittiness of 6 max cash games, but the reads given were that opp was lag. Versus anyone who has the remote ability to press the all in button without a nut hand on the river, this is a call. There are a bajillion air hands in CO's range when the river is dealt, but I cannot think of one nut hand that is played this way a majority of the time. I think if CO did check the turn with a nut hand or JJ, it was a very bad play. Nonetheless, although opponents play hands very badly sometimes, I'd put it at a very low weight. You can't get a better hero call spot with opps range. Tons of hands with no showdown value in his range with zero nut hands in his range. Our guesses on our opponents motivations and thought processes of "lag" are not going to outweigh his range in this situation.

Just looked at the hand again and I might've missed something the first time around.

If CO bets turn and hand plays similarly otherwise, it turns it into a fold right?

Originally Posted by Alexos

Just looked at the hand again and I might've missed something the first time around.

If CO bets turn and hand plays similarly otherwise, it turns it into a fold right?

If CO 3barrels, Hero c/r's river, and CO shoves, I'd say yeah its a fold.

Originally Posted by Alexos

Just looked at the hand again and I might've missed something the first time around.

If CO bets turn and hand plays similarly otherwise, it turns it into a fold right?

come on, for real? The whole essence of this hand, and the river calling is the turn check! Don't even think its particularly that close if the turn doesn't check through, pretty easy fold on river then, after we c/r.

Originally Posted by Alexos

Just looked at the hand again and I might've missed something the first time around.

If CO bets turn and hand plays similarly otherwise, it turns it into a fold right?

If CO 3barrels, Hero c/r's river, and CO shoves, I'd say yeah its a fold.

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

Are you guys joking? CO is repping absolutely nothing, I don't think I fold anything here.

yesss... finally I don't have to feel like the only station on this site haha

Yes, P4, you're in the elite! :P

i was gonna say, call. like wtf

note: if he had bet the turn, we would have c/c and c/r river or c/r and jam river so he gains absolutely nothing by slowplaying the nizzles here

Yeah I just don't think any competent player checks the turn here with something strong, as you have all said he has nothing to gain.

It's definitely a fold as I seriously don't think he'd play like that if he was bluffing.