2/4...Straight vs GP333

No history....I've 3bet him a few times, first one he's called

** Side Note: I would have made it 45-50 pre but I didn't realize he 4x'ed it until it was too late and i autopiloted a standard 10BB 3 bet IP

Turn play and river action?

P.S. Gabe I haven't outted my Stars SN on this site, I want to keep it like that please


$2/$4 No Limit Holdem
PokerStars
4 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
CO ($455.20)
BTN ($400)
SB ($424.40)
Hero (BB) ($519.20)

Pre-Flop: ($6, 4 players) Hero is BB
2 folds, SB raises to $16, Hero raises to $40, SB calls $24

Flop: ($80, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $65, SB calls $65

Turn: ($210, 2 players)
SB bets $72

Your 3bet pre is terrible but other than that id call and call nonclub river.

I wouldn't 3bet this, especially not vs gabe. He doesn't fold to 3bets ever, and plays well post.

As played, agree with ISF call call. Your turn calling range (as gabe would perceive it) has a lot of pair+clubs/high clubs, so he'll probably bluff river again on a brick if he's bluffing.

Easy flat Pre
Call and evaluate.

gabe has AA or KK imo and isn t folding so I d raise

Originally Posted by Genitruc

gabe has AA or KK imo and isn t folding so I d raise

So is he bluffing? o.O Im totally baffled by your read. Can you explain for me please. Is it mostly because he didnt 4bet pre? Im sure he must call wider than that if hes getting totally hammered on. I really cant see anything postflop that looks even a little like an overpair.

oh man, genitruc, I hope you're levelling lol.

uhm yea, call turn call river, hes probably just stone bluffing tbh

i dont hate your 3bet pre, fcking nits

defending by calling oop w a marginal range seems pretty shitty and then taking this fishy line seems even shittier

and ya, i wasn t levelling at all

whatd you think i thought you had

Originally Posted by Genitruc

defending by calling oop w a marginal range seems pretty shitty and then taking this fishy line seems even shittier

But dont you guys have like balanced ranges or something?

balancing ranges at midstakes when you re not playing the same ppl all the time is hugely overrated

The player pool isnt that big at 2/4 is it? But ok I get your point. So is it just preflop that makes you think AA/KK? I really dont see why either of those would play postflop that way.

maybe gabe is just messing around but in my experience when a good player wants you to put them on a weak range in a spot where you're likely to think that they re just getting sick of you, their range is usually strong

i smell a tarp (gone wrong from gabe's perspective)!

obviously i could come out of this looking like a total idiot but wtv

I just think there's already inherently enough mistrust bvb, that ppl are getting it in so much lighter, I doubt SB will flat too many big hands when his 4bet won't get credit anyways.

Originally Posted by sauce123

uhm yea, call turn call river, hes probably just stone bluffing tbh

i dont hate your 3bet pre, fcking nits

+2. I'd just call him down and not give it a second thought ever. I really don't see how preflop is terrible either. What types of hands is it OK to 3-bet bluff BVB, if it's terrible to 3-bet this one?

Originally Posted by mcatdog

Originally Posted by sauce123

uhm yea, call turn call river, hes probably just stone bluffing tbh

i dont hate your 3bet pre, fcking nits

+2. I'd just call him down and not give it a second thought ever. I really don't see how preflop is terrible either. What types of hands is it OK to 3-bet bluff BVB, if it's terrible to 3-bet this one?

I don't hate 3betting this against players that fold a lot to 3bets, or play predictably postflop and fit or fold a lot. But gabe doesn't fold to a lot of 3bets, and doesn't play fit or fold/predictably post flop.

So were threebetting 25% (loose estimate) of the time or something versus his preflop opens from the SB? That seems like overkill. I'm doubting any gameflow or whatnot is going to matter with the amount of tables gabe is likely playing.


Postflop its pretty difficult to put him on a hand here.

Originally Posted by gabe

whatd you think i thought you had

I have no idea and leveled the shit out of myself on the river.

(For the rest of you guys, I flatted the turn which I would do with 100% of my continuing range....I don't think I have a shove range there and he snap-jammed a clumsy, irrelevant river)

Here was my confused back and forth thought process on the river:

-I couldn't see you (or thinking players) stealing initiative to go 2 streets for value when a lot of my range is folding the river when bet into and bluffing when checked to since you're turn bet looked like you were blocking 8x8c type hands and buying a river card and a free showdown. Plus, the turn is a heavenly barrel card for my air and I would think you would think I would barrel it relentlessly.

^^This made me want to call it off

-But it's probably the best value line since I'm pot controlling 2 pair and strong absolute value type hands and b/f alot of my air and overpairs that picked up equity. But I'm calling all of those hands on the turn and I can Hero call them all too on blank rivers. Plus I wouldn't expect you to try to blow an unknown off of a 7 unless the river complicates the board more.

^^This made me want to fold

I knew I was LOLsmashed by your value range since I wouldn't think you were batshit enough to shove sets and 2 pair for value. Maybe you are though, who knows.

I felt like such a vagina folding and i felt VEEEERRYY uneasy about it but he twisted my arm and I put my tail between my legs and cried uncle.

Plus the guy was like 16 tabling and i rarely see mass multi tablers execute elaborate and intricate bluffs like this.

Originally Posted by sauce123

i dont hate your 3bet pre, fcking nits

Obviously, I figure anyone that advocates 3bet/5bet jamming 44 for value in the BB vs BTN won't mind this play. YAHH MEEAN!

Originally Posted by OP

I felt like such a vagina folding and i felt VEEEERRYY uneasy about it but he twisted my arm and I put my tail between my legs and cried uncle.

Wow... I really think we have to call this. I feel like he will c/r flop a good % of the time with his clubs even.

^^^
Oh yeah I'm pretty sure I got owned here and 24 hours later and I'm still disgusted with myself. Maybe I'll just say i was balancing my folding range?

I think I'm just gonna go put on some Michael Bolton, take a bubble bath, read the latest Cosmo and get in touch with my inner pussyness.

It's all good though I ran a 25/50 reg off the streets (Molswi47; he was playing lower obv) later last night and had him tilt challenging me to 200/400 HU4ROLLZ. That made me feel a little better.

it d be fun if gabe let us know what he had!

id go call/call even if the river was a club. I would shove if he bet 100$ or more

Originally Posted by Genitruc

it d be fun if gabe let us know what he had!

i think i showed =]

i dont think preflop is bad, but against me i think its better to not have a polarized 3 betting range. since this was our first time playing together its probably fine.

i thought u would just fold all your air on the turn, and there were enough hands you would peel vs that small bet and then fold vs a river shove that i thought this line was profitable.

also in general when im playing back at someone because i think they have a wide range in a 3b pot, i'm hardly ever just c/cing a flush draw 100b deep

Originally Posted by gabe

Originally Posted by Genitruc

it d be fun if gabe let us know what he had!

i think i showed =]

i dont think preflop is bad, but against me i think its better to not have a polarized 3 betting range. since this was our first time playing together its probably fine.

i thought u would just fold all your air on the turn, and there were enough hands you would peel vs that small bet and then fold vs a river shove that i thought this line was profitable.

also in general when im playing back at someone because i think they have a wide range in a 3b pot, i'm hardly ever just c/cing a flush draw 100b deep

So wait, your saying you OOP floated the flop with air? I was thinking you probably had 88 or something.

Pretty poor hand reading to give him many better hands than a Straight, Three to Seven.

Preflop is fine if you don't think you can call a 4x raise for a profit vs gabe (very possibly true).

this hand is more interesting if you have QQ

i think i like raising the turn to like 160$ so that you don't lose value to all the bad river cards (he can shove big clubs, sets and overpairs that he might c/fold on the river). I guess if we think he has pure air here a lot calling is best but i def would put gabe on some kind of hand here given his line.

kinda cool turn bet, it widens your perceived value range when very few lines make possible. But did OP fold anyway? Wow, i don't think i'd fold anything that beats all bluffs.

i had KcQ btw. thoughts on flop play?

Originally Posted by Renton

Pretty poor hand reading to give him many better hands than a Straight, Three to Seven.

You're absolutely right, and I definitely have a bad case of "monsters under the bed" when I'm up against players I KNOW are levels and miles ahead of me and I'm trying hard to work on that without donking off stacks left and right.

Sometimes I just think about spots way to hard and confuse myself when my gut instict usually turns out to be the right play. Plus, it seems everyone seems to run the nuts out on me recently and that is obviously negatively affecting my decisions.

Hopefully a few sessions with ISF will straighten this kind of shit out.

C'est La Vie

who are you on stars?

Bold OOP float

I mean certainly double barreling the turn as a bluff when you c/c the flop seems good so its hard to like it but if you think he is going to check his cbetted air on the turn a majority of the time and you can get him to fold an overpair on some dangerous looking cards it seems cool.

yeah this is a cool hand. So we like gabe's turn bet so long as he's b/folding the turn and shoving every river?

hmm I'm not sure what I think about gabe's line. I don't mind it on a 4 turn or 7 turn, but I don't think its very credible to run a bluff on a club here. I guess betting a club is ok to get hero off air, but I don't think hero is folding any legit hands to barrels when a club turns.

idk i think gabe should just lead the flop if he's gonna try anything here. once he c/c's the flop he has to win the pot a staggering amount of the time to break even

i was only going to lead the straight cards, i think i would have checked everything else assuming he would check behind often and i would bet river

ya i like the fake pot control-lead river line, usually ppl don t think it s a bluff

Originally Posted by Genitruc

ya i like the fake pot control-lead river line, usually ppl don t think it s a bluff

Well one reason they give it credit is because they know they would need to be folding a pretty unrealistic amount of their range in order to be exploited by it.

no they dont. i think he will have complete air alot on the turn ( he 3b 47s, if hes doing it with this think of his entire range he gets to the turn with).

Originally Posted by gabe

no they dont. i think he will have complete air alot on the turn ( he 3b 47s, if hes doing it with this think of his entire range he gets to the turn with).

sure but doesn't your float mathematically need to work something like 80% of the time?

just seems like a really bad or really good line and if gabe thinks OP thinks he's good...

if I was in OP's spot, I'd expect gabe to expect me to think this is a bluff, so I'd fold.

and get owned

Actually had time to calculate this since I'm not playing anymore.

Since you call 65 into 80 on the flop, that means if you are going to bet 1/2 the pot on the river (we'll say 100), that means you'd be risking 165 to win 145, so you'd need it to work over 53% of the time assuming the turn always goes check check and you never improve. IMO the times the situations lays itself out such that you cannot win the pot more than makes up for your implied odds improving or your implied bluff odds in situations like what happened (leading some turns), so imo by the time the turn goes check check and the river blanks off, u are gonna need to win at least 2/3, possibly 3/4 or more.

OP: do you understand just how completely absurd folding is here? i feel like you dont get it

good post renton. its also worth mentioning that since his range his wide he should be barreling K/Q turns which makes me some more $

Originally Posted by nutsinho

OP: do you understand just how completely absurd folding is here? i feel like you dont get it

word.

Also, if hero is really that scurred of villain then it doesn't really matter what line villain takes, he can just do whatever he wants as long as it confuses hero because it will clearly get him to fold like 95% of his range. In which case, I think it's great. Against someone not shaking in their boots, I think this line is probably okay. Really just doesn't work (as a bluff) against very perceptive opponents IME though.

lol im not trying to get him to fold a straight

Clearly not, but that's not the point I was making.