2 Laydowns

BB is a donk trying hard to find a hand to call off his stack to
SB is a tricky/thinking LAgg


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP ($163)
Fnord ($205.15)
Button ($239.70)
SB ($692.05)
BB ($68.70)
UTG ($164.90)

Preflop: Fnord is CO with Q, J.
2 folds, Fnord raises to $8, 1 fold, SB calls $7, BB calls $6.

Flop: ($24) 4, T, J (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Fnord bets $16, SB calls $16, BB calls $16.

Turn: ($72) 7 (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Fnord bets $45, SB calls $45, BB calls $44.70 (All-In).

River: ($206.70) Q (3 players, 1 all-in)
SB bets $140, Fnord folds.

Final Pot: $346.70

Same Table, UTG is the LAgg
I'm going to go with Tight/Passive for the BB


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Button ($194)
Fnord ($198)
BB ($210.50)
UTG ($670.30)
MP ($51.85)
CO ($182.70)

Preflop: Fnord is SB with K, K.
UTG raises to $8, 3 folds, Fnord raises to $24, BB calls $22, UTG folds.

Flop: ($56) 7, 2, A (2 players)
Fnord checks, BB bets $20, Fnord folds.

Final Pot: $76

Hand 1: nh.

Hand 2: I'd call at least the flop bet (maybe a leak). Donks like to bluff the Ace even though they have 99-QQ.

Fnord raises to $24, BB calls $22

Lol. The reason why i love pokerstars. They try sooooo hard to play goot.

Yeah, it's pretty frack'n easy to put him on a range there.

Hand 1: You think he's got AK? Otherwise I'm confused...

Hand 2: Looks okay.

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

Hand 1: You think he's got AK? Otherwise I'm confused...

I was too. Then he showed down 77....

Originally Posted by Fnord

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

Hand 1: You think he's got AK? Otherwise I'm confused...

I was too. Then he showed down 77....

since he's obviously gonna stack you it was a good odds play, .


Is first hand really a fold? I'm not sure what your image is, but JT is definately a possibilty... same as QT, maybe. I'm just not sure what hands are really in his range, because i'm not sure how loose he is OOP.

I'm guessing his range is decently narrow here, and you think he definately has a set or straight?

Originally Posted by Fnord

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

Hand 1: You think he's got AK? Otherwise I'm confused...

I was too. Then he showed down 77....

If the idea of the showdown not being protected, i.e. if there wasnt a sidepot and a guy allin, do you make this call on the river getting 2:1?

I don't understand the fold in hand 2. I think your fold is weak, unless you are trusting your read more than it sounds like in your description. 4:1 on your money against a very weak flop bet. That looks a lot like a missed QQ-JJ trying to pick up the pot cheap and in position.
Although, now that I think about it I can't find a great line OOP here. CR flop to $60 and see if he's serious, but that looks a little spewy. It may slow him down on future streets if you even get a caller.
Maybe EV of -$24 is the best we can do here. It just feels weak.

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

If the idea of the showdown not being protected, i.e. if there wasnt a sidepot and a guy allin, do you make this call on the river getting 2:1?

i think id call if there wasn't that protected money in there, but with reads and the situation i like the fold here too.

i dont fold the second one yet, but the stars games probably play different than what im used to (so ive heard).

Originally Posted by Silly String

I don't understand the fold in hand 2. I think your fold is weak, unless you are trusting your read more than it sounds like in your description. 4:1 on your money against a very weak flop bet. That looks a lot like a missed QQ-JJ trying to pick up the pot cheap and in position.
Although, now that I think about it I can't find a great line OOP here. CR flop to $60 and see if he's serious, but that looks a little spewy. It may slow him down on future streets if you even get a caller.
Maybe EV of -$24 is the best we can do here. It just feels weak.

Yeah, this pretty much sums it up. No really good line here, he's tight enough that check/call doesn't seem right but I'm really basing my read here on maybe 12 hands. It's not a 4:1 call because we figure to get the way worst of it in future betting rounds.

Originally Posted by Fnord

It's not a 4:1 call because we figure to get the way worst of it in future betting rounds.

i dont think so. if hes bluffing he'll stop betting after the flop 95% of the time, otherwise he bets again and we fold.

Hand 1: Protected pot + decent player tried to confuse us = easy fold.

Hand 2: I peel a turn because his bet is smallish/weakish.

Originally Posted by gabe

Originally Posted by Fnord

It's not a 4:1 call because we figure to get the way worst of it in future betting rounds.

i dont think so. if hes bluffing he'll stop betting after the flop 95% of the time, otherwise he bets again and we fold.

That's what I'm thinking too.

hand 1 i guess was a pretty tough fold...when someone wants to stack the aggressor in a big ass pot you can pretty much assume they have near nuts right?

hmmm, i think i insta-bet the flop in hand 2 if i was playing....1/3 the pot.

Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi

hand 1 i guess was a pretty tough fold...when someone wants to stack the aggressor in a big ass pot you can pretty much assume they have near nuts right?

sometimes big pot bluffs can be missed draws, but no obvious draw missed here. also two pair is great to crack a big pair or TPTK, but villian's line doesnt seem like one of those either given preflop and flop.

Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi

hmmm, i think i insta-bet the flop in hand 2 if i was playing....1/3 the pot.

In general I do this as well, but more of the pot, probably 1/2, and it's something I've been at debate with myself over for a while now. Here he raises 4x in EP and called 3x reraise. What kind of range is that? AQ+, 22+? Maybe KQs? I'm not sure what's typical.

If we check, is he always betting? If he doesn't bet, we're probably ahead, correct? So when he does bet, what are we making our decision based on? Size of the bet or what?

Trying to provoke some thought process for myself

Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi

hmmm, i think i insta-bet the flop in hand 2 if i was playing....1/3 the pot.

Mixing up bet sizes that much is bad. How much would you bet if you hit this flop?

I'm of the mindset that I'm going to bet or check on early streets and not mix around too much with bet sizes.

Yep, standard bet sizes for me too, 3/4 to full pot.

sorry, i got confused...i mean 1/2, thus giving the opponent 1/3 odds....sometimes i think forwards like that :S

anyways, i bet the same amount regardless if i hit or not, and re-evaluate my situation based on my opponents action. if this was limit i would just bet bet bet call down. but since this is NL i'd have to fold to any substantial raise. generally i will also bet the same amount whether i hit or not, whether i have AA or rags.

The problem with 1/2 pot is that it's not reliable enough to push weak players off weak hands and doesn't get enough money into the pot fast enough when you want to play a big pot.