2 Questions

1).

My overall play from the blinds is probably my biggest weakness...

Say a reasonably aggressive CO/BTN opens, and is called by a similar type of opponent who is on the BTN/SB. Both have 100BB stacks.

I usually call but occasionally squeeze here with A-xs/SC's when in the blinds and facing a CO/BTN open. Is your 3bet/call frequency with these hands close to 50/50? Or more like 75/25? 25/75? Would this frequency change if you were going to be calling behind in position (CO/BTN)?


With 2-2 - 5-5 i now tend to call unless the opener is quite LAGGy. Initially i did this solely on zook's advice from an earlier question i asked in a post, but also because i later figured out that these hands are less likely to hit a "feltable" flop in a 3bet pot(OESD/flush draw, TP [A-xs]).


2).

I wonder if i sometimes end up making calls that are marginal for me (given my tighter style of play) that wouldn't be for other players (with higher VPIP/PFR's - a looser style of play). And because i play considerably tighter than many of the poker players i take advice from (CR instructors, veteran/experienced FTR members), i suspect that a decision with their image that is clearly +EV is sometimes marginal given my tighter image. This leads me to believe i ought to loosen up considerably preflop, since it would make many decisions in large pots easier.

If you do think i should loosen up considerably preflop, approximately how wide would you recommend my CO/BTN opening ranges become? Currently i play something like 27% of my hands in the CO and 35% on the button. Could i do 40/45% VPIP from those positions and maintain my currently low VPIP's from UTG/MP?

And yes against weak opponents our image isn't really as important to consider (i.e. 25NL/50NL and lower). But once our opponents are capable of making decisions based on how we are playing, the importance of our image increases.

info is missing in the first question like stacks, reads, # of players, etc. i usually don't like calling in the blinds heads up vs the button with a low PP though. usually when i do theres a fish who'll tag along, or i can easily c/r bluff the flop or float or something like that.

for the second question, you could change how you play, but why not just trust your own reads more, since that's prob what you're more comfortable and experienced with?

Oops, thanks benny. Edited.

So you prefer something like 25/75 for a call/3bet frequency with these hands when there is a caller in between, but 3bet/fold if the action is heads up. This is my typical approach as well atm.

I was thinking of opening more hands like 10-9o from the CO; Brian Townsend calls opens like this "o EV plays". While they create more challenging postflop situations, they do have the benefit of raising your VPIP/PFR.

good post/question

in general if the CO/btn opener is tight then I d just pitch all marginal hands

the "3-bet only" from blinds strategy has become oh so standard, to the point where I think most decent regs - even at the low-midstakes - are getting better at playing 3-bet pots in position (floating, bluff raising A high flops and other sicko shit).

So since this question seems to relate to confusing/pwning the better aware players, I'd suggest adopting a completely randomized approach that involves multiple options on both the flop and turn. Since you seem to question the ideal preflop approach to take, I'll just talk about a passive preflop strategy that assumes we never 3 bet (obv only theoretical...).

Assuming we've flat-called preflop, we're obv not doing it only to check-fold everytime. Here are a few random ideas (sry if they're obvious) :

-calling a nothing flop with a hand like AJ unimproved can be a good play, even OOP (lots of ppl advocate never floating OOP) if you're opponent doesn't like 2-barreling. You'll win the showdown more often than you might think

-when you turn a medium strength hand into a bluff (something like 77 on a J83r flop) by check-raising, put a lot of thought into which turn cards to fire. From a purely game-theoretical perspective, I prefer calling preflop and CR the flop (without a ton of history between opp and I) to reraising preflop.

When I 3 bet with this type of hand (think mid PP), either I fold out my opponent's worse hand, or am going to put myself in a position where I am bluffing with a pair OOP in a big pot. Raising the flop will be a much more threatening line to an opponent because of the greater # of hands I can represent, the greater implied threat of playing for stacks (since simply 3-betting preflop has become so boring) and the fact that, with practice, it becomes easier and easier to make a good decision on the turn based on board texture, opp's likely range etc. This approach is more complicated but I personally prefer it to the poo-flinging contest that goes on between most 21/17 and 17/14 types in late position and in the blinds.

-vs an opponent who is prone to fire 2 bullets, calling hands like AQ and KJ or QJ is lots of fun. Sometimes CR when you both miss and sometimes call 2 bullets with a fist pump when you flop top pair. It's very rare for ppl to 3 barrel.

-this could turn into a way-too-long post so I'll stop here, but it's a good topic

btw just realized I basically replied to 0% of your OP. One thing I think is fun in the situation you laid out is calling pre and donking into the PFR with a wide range (i.e. 66 on a J83 board, AA on a K66 board). obv do the same with your monsters and combo draws but most solid players run for the hills when seemingly tight solid villains donk into them

VN post genitruc.

Vi - i meant if i dont know of obvious holes of co/btn's game, and it's hu, i'll fold most times.
but this particular spot doesn't seem to come up that often for me, since i'm usually next to at least one fish and/or have some reads on co/btn like they cbet-fold too much. i like genitruc's points though.
anyway good question i'll think about it more as that spot comes up in the future.

also i think it's a good idea to play more hands, especially so you learn how more people think at higher stakes, and generally get better at reading.

Thanks for the detailed reply, Genitruc.

There are a lot of regulars, particularly at 200NL, who are like 100% 3bet/fold from the blinds. And i have only ran into 1 monkey 3bettor regular that plays well in reraised pots (a ton of crappy c-bets by villains mostly). So yeah i definitely would agree that a lot of these players would be better off mixing some calling preflop into their game.

I don't do a good job balancing my lines, tbh. I mean after i take a big pot to showdown, i note that villain held X and that he saw me showdown X (and how we both played) and will bluff with an identical line/use a different line for value. But other than that i mean i 100% raise strong hands preflop, c-bet monster hands, etc. Would you say 400NL is about the time when making that addition to my game becomes necessary.

I actually 3bet preflop with both types of hands you gave suggestions for clever postflop lines with. (A-J, 7-7). The reason i opt to 3bet is to avoid these spots on the flop (middle strength hands OOP). I am not criticizing your advice but just explaining why "i do what i do".

I love check/calling double barrels with TP against aggro regs. The best part is i haven't noticed any of them start double barreling less

I don't mind that your advice didn't specifically address my OP. As for the donk betting, i think it could be the lowest variance +EV play that low limit players (< 400NL) don't use enough.


My note taking skills are clearly far inferior to benny's, obviously. I feel very accomplished when i discover a particular pattern in a fish's betting pattern. So taking better notes on the regs is another area of my game i need to spend more time on.


Is my idea, which is basically "is LAG > TAG b/c postflop decisions are easier" just fundamentally wrong? I know a TAG can probably run bigger bluffs more often, but that is kind of a different point from my thought behind avoiding marginal spots.

This advice is versus laggs, versus tight player dont tend to play loose from the blinds. As I like to say if he's not doing some out of the ordinary don't punish them for it.

1. Threebet a lot, low pp's and sc's
2. You can call with hands like QJ, KT, etc. high cards.
3. Profit.

1. Against a loose pre-flop raiser (steal% over 30) I like to squeeze or fold in this situation with hands like sc's or Axs. They don't play well oop, you don't have good implied odds vs. a loose lp raiser, they can be deceptive in 3bet pots and you can consider felting them vs. a light 4-bettor. I call with low and medium pp's. I don't worry about balancing my calls much, but occasionally I'll throw in stuff like KJ/QJo/T9o/32s or just call with an SC.

2. I'm not sure what you mean without examples or a more detailed explanation. What stats are you running? Roughly double your utg stats on the button is a good guideline and a few points less in the CO.

Originally Posted by zook

1. Against a loose pre-flop raiser (steal% over 30) I like to squeeze or fold in this situation with hands like sc's or Axs. They don't play well oop, you don't have good implied odds vs. a loose lp raiser, they can be deceptive in 3bet pots and you can consider felting them vs. a light 4-bettor. I call with low and medium pp's. I don't worry about balancing my calls much, but occasionally I'll throw in stuff like KJ/QJo/T9o/32s or just call with an SC.

2. I'm not sure what you mean without examples or a more detailed explanation. What stats are you running? Roughly double your utg stats on the button is a good guideline and a few points less in the CO.

1). I definitely see the value in calling with medium PP's instead of 3betting preflop, since they don't often flop "feltable" hands (like smaller pairs). I also see the value in defaulting to squeezing with A-xs/SC's when a loose CO/BTN opens.

2). Okay, here are some examples of what i mean:

Assume villain is reasonably aggressive with stats like 22/18.

1). I raise preflop with A-Qo UTG and get called by villain in CO. The flop comes Q-7-10 rainbow. I c-bet and villain raises.


Board: Qd Th 7s
Dead:

equity
Hand 0: 59.386% { AcQh }
Hand 1: 40.614% { 77, KJs+, QTs, J9s, 98s, KQo }


---


Board: Qd Th 7s
Dead:

equity
Hand 0: 40.672 { AcQh }
Hand 1: 59.382% { TT, 77, KJs, QTs, J9s, 98s }


---


anywhere from a 15 - 20% difference in equity, depending on whether you add/remove weight to some weak draws in the TAG range or include some MPNK hands in both ranges.

With my TAG stats, i would assume villain could have 7-7 OR 10-10 because, knowing my PFR was only 14%, he would assume he was better off set hunting with 10-10. But if i were playing considerably looser, he would assme my UTG opening range but be wide enough to warrant 3betting 10-10. Look how this affects my overall equity against his range.

I also know it wouldn't be +EV for villain to raise me with TPGK with my TAGGy stats, so i didn't include K-Q in the second range.

I would probably tend not to c-bet the flop with A-Qo with my TAG stats, since i don't do very well against his raising range. But with LAGGy stats, i would be betting the flop and calling a raise for value.


And yea that's a pretty extreme example in terms of the big differences in equity - the flop is fairly dry. In fact, i would assume that on more coordinated flops the difference in equity would drop to about 7-8%. But that difference is still significant if Hero is playing IP, primarily since it allows for better value extractino.

And, at lower limits, my opponents will often be making the mistake of raising with TPGK against my TAGGy A-Q or making dumb bluffs etc. But against smart opponents, i feel those ranges and the general idea apply.

i take decent notes but the stuff i was saying about cbetting too much i get from the HUD stat.
there are ppl who cbet like 90%+ even after 3betting, and raising or floating them on the flop rules.

and man that is a very good post on image affecting equity.

it definitely comes down to reads though, and sometimes slowplaying or calling light is good.

in my experience, most regs will give up on the turn after bluff raising the flop though, since they're afraid you're trapping and don't want to bluff a whole stack without being more confident.

ya nice post VZ

Vi- great post again, very sound points

i think you are doing a great job of proving why a loose-aggressive game might be more optimal at HSNL...

however there are a ton of notable TAG players who succeed as well: rekrul, em2, whinniepie, enoball, jcmoussa come to mind... (these players are all under 18% vpip fwiw)

so i think there is a fair amount of credence to the argument "play a style which fits your personality" as lame as that saying might sound coming from say.... vince van patten lol...

VZ: Nice post. A few things come to mind...

1) It probably wouldn't take a huge change in pre-flop stats to change a regular's impression of you. Everyone tends to generalize from pre-flop numbers too much, like 16/14 seems nitty to me, but get to 18/16 and you're just another average tagg. Also, you may be overestimating how much people's calling/3betting ranges change based on pre-flop numbers. Sure, good players will adjust, but as sauce so eloquently put it another thread yesterday "it's a mistake to assume your opponents won't make a mistake". (Props sauce.) For example, I bet there are a fair number of regulars who almost never 3bet TT vs. an utg raiser, no matter what opp's stats are.

2) Another factor to consider is how often they fold to your c-bet on this flop when you whiff. Presumably it will be more often if you have tighter stats b/c they'll be calling pre-flop with a wider range and will give you credit more often on a flop like this.

3) Being able to confidently fold on a dry flop like this isn't necessarily a bad thing. You've made the case that that a lagg has to give strong thought to felting this when at best he's a 60/40 favorite. Hello variance.

4) I honestly believe that once you have a decent post-flop game, can read the regulars in your game reasonably well, and play most hands in position pre-flop barely matters. You've made a excellent case for why it doesn't: a good player can easily adapt his post-flop game to how his aware opponents are adapting to his pre-flop game.

Thanks for all the feedback, guys.

I have some more ideas for how to play hands with good implied value better. As for hands like J-9o/Q-10o i will continue to nit it up and pass with these hands preflop and out of position. It fits well into my tighter style of play.

I think what i am going to take away from everyones responses is that i don't need to be intentionally making mistakes preflop when playing 200/400NL. My opponents are still making enough mistakes on later streets regardless of my image that i don't need to sacrifice equity preflop.

But the other possibility is that the benefit of running bigger and more profitable bluffs playing tight does closely balance the value of some easier postflop situations for looser players.

Either way i am going to try to playing slightly looser and more aggressive for 10-15k hands (not to the point of spewing preflop but i will try to make more thinEV/oEV opens) and see how it impacts my win rate.