2 simple spots

Hand 1)
villain is 21/16/3 TAG. I don't have many hands but he seems to fold to a lot of cbets and he's tight enough out of the blinds. I'm 23/20, should have a soplid enough image and we have no history.

$2/$4 No Limit Holdem
5 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($455.50)
Hero ($488.90)
BTN ($165.50)
SB ($433.00)
BB ($451.00)

Pre-flop: ($6, 5 players) Hero is CO
1 fold, Hero raises to $14, 1 fold, SB calls $12, 1 fold

Flop: ($32, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $24, SB raises to $72, $48 to Hero ($450.9)?

Hand 2)
Villain is an unknown 24/14/2 player. Folds to cbets half the time.

$2/$4 No Limit Holdem
5 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
Hero ($547.35)
CO ($649.00)
BTN ($156.75)
SB ($534.80)
BB ($870.23)

Pre-flop: ($6, 5 players) Hero is UTG
Hero raises to $11.50, 3 folds, BB calls $7.50

Flop: ($25, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero ($535.85)?

1) I think I fold here most of the time since it looks like a set/2pr/NFD/K high FD. Rarely is this a TP type hand, and rarely does he do this with a flush lower than yours, save 97s.

2) I cbet all day long.

hand 1 ... its too good of a board for him to make a move on and you have decent equity as well as a solid image, i think those two things working together are enough to make a committing raise and get it all in if he wants to play. yeah, you obv won't be ahead when it does go in, but u accomplish a couple of things by doing this ... a) you put a lot of pressure on him. b)you make it less likely for him to make a move in this spot again in the future. and c) if your hand gets shown down, it's more liekly you get paid off by a weaker hand next time you have tpgk on this board.

i just really dont like the idea of betting the flop in order to fold to a raise, id prefer to check it behind if i wasnt going to go with the hand if raised.

2nd hand if u dont c-bet u are pretty much giving up. it's ok to do, but i think u get a fold on an ace high board often enough that id like to be betting w/ little to no SD value.

Originally Posted by Marshall28

hand 1 ... its too good of a board for him to make a move on and you have decent equity as well as a solid image, i think those two things working together are enough to make a committing raise and get it all in if he wants to play.

I'd feel much better getting it in if the board was KQ7 since there are a lot more TP/MP hands in his range. If he's a solid reg then he's probably not going to build a pot OOP with TPTK on a board where we have shown aggression. Sure this is KQ a lot, but I think his range is so skewed towards nut hands that getting it in is surely a bad play.

Originally Posted by Marshall28

yeah, you obv won't be ahead when it does go in, but u accomplish a couple of things by doing this ... a) you put a lot of pressure on him. b)you make it less likely for him to make a move in this spot again in the future. and c) if your hand gets shown down, it's more liekly you get paid off by a weaker hand next time you have tpgk on this board.

I don't really like the idea of sticking my stack in for metagame reasons. I could see this as a much more viable option if we've seen him being tricky/we have history. A c/r is still a c/r, and we don't have any basis for saying its weak this early.

Originally Posted by Marshall28

i just really dont like the idea of betting the flop in order to fold to a raise, id prefer to check it behind if i wasnt going to go with the hand if raised.

2nd hand if u dont c-bet u are pretty much giving up. it's ok to do, but i think u get a fold on an ace high board often enough that id like to be betting w/ little to no SD value.

Isn't that the point of cbets? Bet on dry flops and if you get action then slow down. You can't win em all.

And even you said on the 2nd hand..if you dont cbet you give it up. Yea it's less drawy, but our board isn't that much better. And plus when they do have a draw we get boned.

sorry if that was really shitty im stoned.

lol my response to the 2nd hand made zero sense.

i really dont know what i was thinking when i typed that ...

what i meant to say was i wouldnt like to be checking w/ little to no showdown value and that u get a fold often enough on this board that u probly should be betting.

FWIW my thoughts are pretty much exactly what freechus has said.

Marshall I dont really get why you want to 3bet the flop to continue. Surely we can play better by calling and utilising our position.

Hand 1: I fold, because his raise is pretty big and we have bad reverse implied odds in this spot I'd imagine. If I had the nut FD I'd balance by calling and bombing here.

Hand 2: This board hit our range harder than his. I'm double barelling here a fair amount.

Originally Posted by griffey24

I'm double barelling here a fair amount.

wow really thats pretty interesting because I would pretty much never double barrel this spot and if I did double I would pretty much always triple. I figure
a) There isn't that much weak Ax in his range
b) The strong Ax (A9+) is never folding to only 2 streets of aggression
c) The weak Ax probably isn't either
d) The weak Ax will probably fold to 3 streets of aggression
e) 7x folds a lot on the flop

What's your reasoning for firing again?

The first hand has probably been a big leak for me for a long time as my standard was always to call there. Only recently realised how bad it is when I did out a big EV calc. I'd estimate calling to be a negative 4-5bb play.

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

What's your reasoning for firing again?

Gets people off of floats if they think you're betting Axx flops almost always and balancing their Ax hands with floats. Particularly if they know you won't double when you don't have it.

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

The first hand has probably been a big leak for me for a long time as my standard was always to call there.

Marshall has a point about it being a good spot to play back at you. Hence I think you need to make this one of your light calls against some guys. Against the more passive sorts, it's a mulligan.

[quote="Fnord"]

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

The first hand has probably been a big leak for me for a long time as my standard was always to call there.

Marshall has a point about it being a good spot to play back at you. Hence I think you need to make this one of your light calls against some guys. Against the more passive sorts, it's a mulligan.

Yeah of course if I think I'm bluff catching with outs then calling is fine. I meant I was calling thinking I had odds to draw for a flush against his flop value raising range.

Just out of interest and after seeing sauce's leggo video, if we call the flop raise and he checks to us on a blank turn are we betting or checking behind?

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

Just out of interest and after seeing sauce's leggo video, if we call the flop raise and he checks to us on a blank turn are we betting or checking behind?

Possible hands he could have:
o Bluffs he's giving up on
o One pair hands he's suddenly decided to pot control/induce with.
o Monsters he's going for the double sucker punch with.

With all due respect to Sauce, I think at the level I play at my opponent's range is like 100x more important than what he thinks of my ranges, so much so that after pre-flop and maybe the flop I don't give a rat's ass about balance. So consider how bluffy he is and how often he follows through. Against bluffy opponents I think bet/fold is fine. Against more passive sorts we're ECSTATIC about taking a free card. Also take the card against total maniacs (edit: and tend to call the river if we make a pair.)

I agree with all that.

Originally Posted by Irisheyes

Originally Posted by griffey24

I'm double barelling here a fair amount.

wow really thats pretty interesting because I would pretty much never double barrel this spot and if I did double I would pretty much always triple. I figure
a) There isn't that much weak Ax in his range
b) The strong Ax (A9+) is never folding to only 2 streets of aggression
c) The weak Ax probably isn't either
d) The weak Ax will probably fold to 3 streets of aggression
e) 7x folds a lot on the flop

What's your reasoning for firing again?

The first hand has probably been a big leak for me for a long time as my standard was always to call there. Only recently realised how bad it is when I did out a big EV calc. I'd estimate calling to be a negative 4-5bb play.

In the second hand, I agree with you that he doesn't have that many weak aces in his hand. But I think a lot of hands like Tx,JJ might flat your UTG raise pre, hell some ppl even flat QQ in this spot pre. I think they will all peel your flop bet. Hence barelling also.

Also, while he doesn't have many really crappy aces, I'd say he also never has AK and only sometimes AQ here. So he doesn't have any really strong aces either. Your UTG range should also get a lot more credit.

First hand - sorry my bad, I actually thought we were OOP. OOP I think this should be a fold, but in position calling this flop is probably marginally ok. Though I'm still not too happy about our reverse implied odds here.

[quote="Marshall28" but u accomplish a couple of things by doing this ... a) you put a lot of pressure on him.

i just really dont like the idea of betting the flop in order to fold to a raise, id prefer to check it behind if i wasnt going to go with the hand if raised.

[/quote]

Hand 1: Do you realize that (a) is not, in itself, an accomplishment? B and C are good though. The problem with your line is that vs this player, we get it in often and very bad. We bet the flop rather than check behind because the vast majority of his range is calling or folding, both of which are good results. Now, we call because he might be getting sick of getting run over and our pot equity allows for a profitable float. Vs a terrible straightforward tagg like fagtors this may just be a fold, but generally you will have a decent shot at winning this pot unimproved after opp gives up on a move.

Hand 2: Definitely cbet.

nuts just quickly what do you think of doubling the second hand?