200NL - Nut Flush - Non-paired board

[lambchopdc]

Opp. is 24/14/2.10 over 340 hands. Has done absolutely nothing crazy.
First time i've ever folded this.

***** Hand History for Game 4198310732 *****
$200 NL Texas Hold'em - Saturday, May 06, 05:22:53 ET 2006
Table Table 106626 (No DP) (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 4: Johnson4994 ( $302.34 )
Seat 5: brbBBQ ( $307.47 )
Seat 6: FundMyAudi ( $226.10 )
Seat 1: PeedaSB ( $330.70 )
Seat 2: RedSyrus ( $148.95 )
Seat 3: yamas78 ( $186 )
FundMyAudi posts small blind [$1].
PeedaSB posts big blind [$2].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to brbBBQ [ Jd As ]
RedSyrus folds.
yamas78 folds.
Johnson4994 raises [$4].
brbBBQ calls [$4].
FundMyAudi folds.
PeedaSB calls [$2].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Qd, 9s, 7s ]
PeedaSB checks.
Johnson4994 checks.
brbBBQ checks.
** Dealing Turn ** [ 8s ]
PeedaSB checks.
Johnson4994 checks.
brbBBQ checks.
** Dealing River ** [ 5s ]
PeedaSB is all-In [$326.70]
Johnson4994 folds.
>You have options at Table 106664 (No DP) Table!.
>You have options at Table 106664 (No DP) Table!.
brbBBQ: folding the As
brbBBQ: nice 6s
brbBBQ folds.
PeedaSB does not show cards.
PeedaSB wins $339.05

Thoughts?

[Hate]

No way could I fold this.
EVER

[Muxy]

i dont fold here.

[boost]

umm yah... wouldnt have run into that problem in the first place. Reraise perflop, bet flop, if called check turn. But as you played it yah I guess folding the river is good, idk. Im drunk and dont feel like doing hte math, but you gotta put him on what hands he would od that with, if 50$ of them or less are the 6s then you gotta call I guess. idk.. I dont play the ahnd anything liek that so idk.

[lambchopdc]

The fact that none of you fold....is exactly why his push is a great play

[ake]

Definate fold, I love his play. Was in a similar situation with quads not so long ago, donk calls

[ville18]

foldzorage
<3

[Muxy]

So you are puting him on 66 with the 6 of spades.

Or some other type of hand.

I would like to learn about this.

Also what if he best the pot

[lambchopdc]

brbBBQ: so peeda...tell me
brbBBQ: u had 66 with the spade back there didn't u?
PeedaSB: about what?
#4198377294: brbBBQ wins $11
PeedaSB: yeah I XXXXed that hand up
#4198378239: yamas78 wins $11
brbBBQ: i disagree
brbBBQ: 99/100 people would call that
#4198378953: Johnson4994 wins $27.10
PeedaSB: yeah, that situation has come up exactly one other time I can remember
#4198381043: Johnson4994 wins $9
PeedaSB: I just pushed and someone called

[midas06]

OMG RESULTS ORIENTATED FOLD PF

nf

[Muxy]

I perfer not to help the fish improve

but nh on that chops.

[mcatdog]

I wouldn't have a hard time folding this. You'll be up against the 6 at least 90% of the time. I wonder whether anyone would be able to fold if you had, say, A J and the board was 9 5 x x 6. I don't think I would be.

[gabe]

its a great fold, the guy isn't doing it as a bluff or a misclick

[sunfunbunch]

To me this is an EASY fold.

There was NO betting on the flop OR turn-- no need to call that when he could have easily raised with 6x6s.

I'm with one of the posters above--I rather ReRaise with AJ [following that with a c-bet] than calling a raise with it, since more likely than not, only your ACE is the live card.

Good fold.

[jackvance]

I'm with one of the posters above--I rather ReRaise with AJ [following that with a c-bet] than calling a raise with it, since more likely than not, only your ACE is the live card.

Isn't it annoying that you'll suddenly be playing for a big pot with a not-so-great hand? Or would you only do this on occassion? I mean, if you miss the flop or hit a pair, your c-bet is also going to have to be pretty big because of the big pot, which means that if you get a call you have to slow down or play for stacks?...

[mcatdog]

I'm with one of the posters above--I rather ReRaise with AJ [following that with a c-bet] than calling a raise with it, since more likely than not, only your ACE is the live card.

Just because a guy raised minimum means than more often than not he has a big pair? I don't agree with that at all, but if that's what you think you should probably be folding preflop. It's not like a guy with QQ or KK will give a damn about your re-raise and c-bet.

[ilikeaces86]

cant he have Js10s?

[sunfunbunch]

I'm with one of the posters above--I rather ReRaise with AJ [following that with a c-bet] than calling a raise with it, since more likely than not, only your ACE is the live card.

Just because a guy raised minimum means than more often than not he has a big pair? I don't agree with that at all, but if that's what you think you should probably be folding preflop. It's not like a guy with QQ or KK will give a damn about your re-raise and c-bet.

The point I was trying to make is that AJ is one of those hands where you lose small, win big.

By minraising I put villian on a small pocket pair.

IF he *did* have a big pair then:
If Villian has QQ, KK he's most likey NOT going to pay you off on a flop of AXX.
If you flop JXX... you might get in trouble.
What is HERO really hoping for in this pot by CALLING a raise with AJ?
IF he gets AXX he gets a small pot. If the flop is JXX he has to go on reads, and if the flop is AQX or AKX he can be in MEGA trouble.

My read of villian is a SMALL pocket pair.
I see small pairs play it like this a lot. This is why I'm reraising in THIS circumstance and cbetting THIS flop.

[sunfunbunch]

cant he have Js10s?

He sure could have JTs, but I think villian would bet this flop is that was the case since AXs, QXs, or KXs can still out draw him?

[jackvance]

The point I was trying to make is that AJ is one of those hands where you lose small, win big.

Sounds like a superb hand then

[sunfunbunch]

The point I was trying to make is that AJ is one of those hands where you lose small, win big.

Sounds like a superb hand then

Whoops!!! Ya know what I meant

[jackvance]

Whoops!!! Ya know what I meant

Yeah I do hehe. But I'd just be careful with AJ and don't inflate the pot for no other reason than that you don't like how it plays..

[sunfunbunch]

Yeah that is why I think AJ is a read dependend hand.

I'll gladly reraise a LAG with this hand, but fold it to a TAG.

[mcatdog]

My read of villian is a SMALL pocket pair.
I see small pairs play it like this a lot. This is why I'm reraising in THIS circumstance and cbetting THIS flop.

Honestly, I see people play garbage aces like this a lot, too. Either way, I agree with you that people min-raise way too often with mediocre hands for a min-raise to deserve any respect.

If you think he has a small pair, why did you say that aces are probably his only three outs? If that's what he has, I'd love to see a JXX flop, because small pairs play back at you a lot on a flop like that, but they usually fold if there's an ace on the flop.

Hands like KQo and AJo are really underrated in my opinion. I make about .50 BB/100 on these hands, I'm not sure how good that is compared to how other people do with them, but it's a hell of a lot better than I do with suited connectors which many people claim are better hands than them. I'm capable of folding top pair if someone is playing back at me hard, but I win a lot of medium-sized pots with them when I bet the flop, check behind on the turn to control the pot size, and call the river when they try to bluff me off top pair with their missed draw, or small pair that they were too stubborn to fold on the flop.

[johnny_fish]

Easy fold.

[lambchopdc]

What is HERO really hoping for in this pot by CALLING a raise with AJ?
IF he gets AXX he gets a small pot. If the flop is JXX he has to go on reads, and if the flop is AQX or AKX he can be in MEGA trouble.

I call raises all the time with marginal broadways. And I almost rarely lose a big pot from being outkicked. I understand your logic in re-raising and I agree most players should raise or fold here. However, I would argue that my post-flop abilities are far better than 95% of the players on Party 6-max 200NL or lower. I can't how many 50bb-100bb pots i've taken down with AJ > TT on a J45 flop.

The other reason i just called here was the following: the original raiser was a huge donkey who never folded. If I re-raise, here is what happens on most boards:

He calls. I c-bet, he calls, i either check turn and he checks, or bluff turn and he calls, I check river he minbets with bottom pair.

I left this out of the original post because the main point of the post was the river. But since everyone is bringing up my earlier plays i figured i would explain. In short, against donkeys who don't fold postflop, i prefer to call in position rather than re-raise with mediocre hands. I would much rather wait and re-raise him with a monster.

[sunfunbunch]

Well, then YOU sir, need to help me do the same =)

:P

[mcatdog]

I call raises all the time with marginal broadways. And I almost rarely lose a big pot from being outkicked. I understand your logic in re-raising and I agree most players should raise or fold here. However, I would argue that my post-flop abilities are far better than 95% of the players on Party 6-max 200NL or lower. I can't how many 50bb-100bb pots i've taken down with AJ > TT on a J45 flop.

Good post. Nice to see I'm not the only one who thinks that these "easily dominated" hands are still pretty good.

[jackvance]

Good post. Nice to see I'm not the only one who thinks that these "easily dominated" hands are still pretty good.

Ditto. I always read about this "being dominated" stuff here, but it didn't resonate with my experience, so I just keep playing them because they work for me. So it's good to read that some other people here have the same experience. To be dominated is rather rare, and while it sucks, I'm not giving up my stack or anything. It is well compensated for by the amount of times you take a smaller pot with a simple TP, or the odd occassions you hit 2 pair or a straight or something. (smallstacks pushing their TT or JT/J9/J8 on a 35J flop are enough to compensate for the times you're up against AK/AQ with your AJ on an A-high board)

I love KQ, AJ (and KJ a little bit) in shorthanded. AT and QJ are a bit more hesitant for me. If they're suited I'll always play them, if not it "depends".

[aislephive]

This is a pretty easy fold considering we have $4 invested here in a huge overbet river push like that has to be the stone cold nuts if the player isn't brain dead. Preflop I'm probably reraising his minraise preflop with AJ since we have position, but calling is fine too.

[dsaxton]

River fold is easy. A player who isn't retarded won't make this play with anything less than a straight flush.

I would've bet the turn and expected to win the pot.

[scott72703]

Definately easy fold here, pots not big enough to steal like that, he's got the straight flush hoping someone will pay him off. No it's not an amazing laydown either, just something an experienced player would do.

[WildBobAA]

Think about the villian. He's pushing his 150BB stack into a 6BB pot. Would he do this with the Ks? Obviously not because he'd be worried about the As. He obviously had the 6s.