2nd & 3rd Barrel Spots

This is an area of my game that is pretty weak.

I saw ISF respond to another thread where SB was PFR BB called SB checked low dry flop and ISF said he would bet and plan 3 barrelling, I didn't get it. Anyway I thought maybe we could do something dumb like come up with a list of like the top 5-10 spots to double/triple barrel and the reasons behind them.

Below is what I've got so far (mainly made up of some good input from ISF, Marshall, Gabe,Genitruc & others & also stolen from Theory Post, thanks!) Please feel free to post suggestions or critter-cisms

Here is a link to the theory post that covered some of this stuff - in case you missed it like I did...
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...se-t87541.html
(Besides ISF, Marshalls response in particular was really eye opening in terms of how in depth you should be thinking about the situation)

Barrelling

Key Concept: Build pots when you are ahead of an opponents range, keep pots small when you are behind an opponents range.

Expression of concept: Barrel cards that statistically increase your chance of winning the hand (strengthen your range), check behinds cards that statistically decrease your chance of winning the hand (bad for your range)


The Double Barrell

Double barrel the best combination of cards that improve your range and fail to improve opps range.
(Also take into consideration how strong your range is compared to his, and how many nut hands you have in your range.)

Equity is important: Be more inclined to barrel hands that have good equity if called, Overs, Gut-Shots+, BD draws etc.
(Because it lowers the fold equity you need for your barrel to be successful and you might even get paid off if you hit one of your outs.)


Good Examples of Double Barrell Scenarios

1. The turn is an Overcard Ten-Ace

Why: Because as the PFR our range has alot of strong broadway-hands (TT-AA,AT-AK,KQ etc.) & the PFC's range has alot of low-medium pocket pairs and suited connector type hands so a broadway card on the turn strengthens our range & fails to improve opps range.

Exceptions:
-You wouldn't DBL barrell an Over-card turn that also improved a pair and a draw type range, unless you planned on firing the river. (See Triple Barrel section) E.g. An Ace turn on KT flop or a K turn on QT flop. (Even though the card strengthened our range it also strengthened opps most likely flop calling range.)
- You might also not barrel an Ace turn as often if you often check back your Ace high hands (More applicable to HU) and WPTK type hands on the flop.
- Sometimes you might also want to barrel a card that is only an overcard to two of the flop cards E.g. A Ten turn on Q75 flop should fold out alot of non top pair hands.

2. The Draw Hits/Misses
Here you need an idea of opps flatting range as opposed to his raising/CR range.

2a) If OPP is passive with draws be less likely to barrel if Draw hits and be more likely to if it misses
Why: OPP has alot more draws in his flop calling range so when the draw hits he is more likely to have it and when it doesn't hit he is more likely to fold to a strong turn bet.

Might work well with Ace high hands esp. IP - because you beat their missed draws on the river if they do call, but if you checked behind they might lead into you on river and calling with Ace high might be too thin?

2b) If OPP is aggressive with draws (OPP CR flop) be more likely to barrel if draw hits & less likely to barrel if it misses
Why: OPP has very few draws in his flop calling range, so he is more likely to fold when the draw hits and more likely to call with a B range hand if it doesn't.


3. To say FU Floater!!%*$!
Why: A floaters flop calling range is much weaker than most so your range should often be ahead if the board doesn't change much on the turn.
Generally you want to barrel mostly your air (until he realises) & your weak draws.
(c/c your medium strength type hands like overpairs and top pair, and c/r your big draws/sets/2pr.)

4. You turn a flush draw?
(But it doesn't improve opps flop calling range.)
Why: It could be a good spot to Barrel because with new outs you need less fold equity & if called, your hand is diguised & very likely to be paid off. (It might also be important to find spots like these because if you never barrelled on low card turns OPP would know you are almost always VBetting in this spot.)
However be more cautious when considering barrelling a turned straight draw because it is very likely to have improved opps flop calling range, E.g. JQ on 973 flop, Turn is a Ten - would probably be a bad spot to double barrel?

5. The flop was dry & missed your range
Why: On low-medium dry flops, your CB often gets called by a wide range because OPP doesn't think you have much. So this is definitely a decent spot to fire more than one bullet. The thing is when you fire barrels you don't have to be trying to get them to fold good one pair hands, you just need to know they have enough ace high and low pocket pair hands that they have to fold to a bet.

Be less likely to Double Barrel when

1. The Board pairs (It is statistically less likely you have that card even moreso if it is not the top card on the flop that paired - because you would have checked back alot of your weak 1 pair hands with that card in them.)
2. Don’t try barrel unknowns off top pair. E.g. You got called after CBetting an Ace High flop - Give up most of the time?
3. Undercards to the flop - If OPP thought he was ahead on the flop these cards won't change to much in his eyes.

The Triple Barrel

In addition to the above concepts, but more applicable to the triple barrel
Do we think opp will call in this situation given game flow and theoretical tendencies?
(I.e. Does he like to call when draws miss, can he fold top pair, does he call river most of the time when he calls the turn.)

Good examples of Triple Barrel scenarios

1. You are most likely up against a 'B' range.

(Moderate strength made hands that won't fold for 1 bet but definitely don't want to call 3)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A, 5
4 folds, SB bets $6, Hero calls $4

Flop: ($12) 6, 9, 2 (2 players)
SB checks,

This a good spot to be considering a triple barrel because

1. You have nut hands in your range
2. Your opponent doesnt
3. Your opponent has a range that isnt likely to fold to one bet
4. You have some equity against his flop and turn c/c range.

2.When their flop & turn calling range has lots of pair + str8 draws
Why: It's a bad spot to double barrel & give up because they are unlikely to fold their hand given that they have good equity & you could be bluffing. But it's a good spot to triple barrel, (esp. with overs & nut draws etc.) because if the straight draw doesn't get there on the river they don't/can't call you that much so betting the turn can be pretty good when you know you are firing the river.(Sure you get owned some of the time when they're pot controlling with TPGK but that s a small % of the time vs most players.)
E.g. 8TJ rainbow flop. This is a good spot to 3 barrel with something like AK unless the turn/river brings 7 or 9.

3. The third overcard hits?
Why: Because it improves our range but is unlikely to have improved our opponents.
Possible Example: If you barrelled an 964 flop on a J turn and now there is a K on the river, if he is holding a pocket pair or a 9 that didn't believe you on the turn he can't think he beats much on the river?

Good Examples of when not to Triple Barrel

1. All the draws brick off

Why: - as long as someone doesnt bluff a missed draw you can just check and win with even ace, or king high, better chances with bottom pair. Second, when draws miss it means your triple barrel bluffing range missed and opp is now more "obligated" to call.
An exception might be on 6s7x2s - If you double barrelled an overcard turn with 45 it might be worth considering a triple barrel because there are so many draws in opps range and you have no showdown vaue?

i like the idea behind this thread, but it's def gonna get a lot of "it depends." maybe add more about what type of opponents these bluffs are most effective against (the ones that involve bluffing when a draw bricks, for example, seem more effective against fish), and maybe add more about what part of our range is most effective to bluff with in certain spots. obv. we're generally gonna be bluffing with our C or D range so it kinda comes down to the first part of your "some of the many things you don't know list", but i think the "F U floater" one is effective to run with your B range on a lot of turn cards (if you're IP obv, if you're OOP you're better of checking).

Cool, thanks for the response yeah you're right it's pretty general but will have to get more situation/opponent specific by the end of the thread.

So for example we could say No. 2 might be something you want to do with ace high because...

I just played a hand vs. a weakish player. I CB 9h7s4h flop he calls turn is 3d (I have Ace high - I think his range is GS/straight/flush draw or weak 1 pair hand, maybe some overs but he's weak I can't move him off it so I check) The river is a blank and he leads.

Now I don't think I can call with Ace high and I think I've made it easy for him to do an inadvertent oop float because now that I've checked behind the turn he might be stabbing some of his draws/overs and fold my CB air on the river. But had I bet the turn his draws would call a couple of weak hands might fold and then on this blank river he wouldn't try stab and my ace high would beat his missed draws?

Barrel when your range > their range, and their range is weak and can't stand ample aggression.

Thanks Stacks, I've included that as the trunk concept behind barrelling unless any1 can provide a better definition.

But I do think it's important (for me anyways) to come up with some common situations where this occurs.

Originally Posted by surviva316

but i think the "F U floater" one is effective to run with your B range on a lot of turn cards (if you're IP obv, if you're OOP you're better of checking).

Do you mean someone will call your CB OOP with a weak hand and fire river if you check behind turn?

If so aren't you better checking behind most of your B range (Pot control range) and inducing the bluff on the river?

Edit: I think Renton includes his good draws in the B range which is a bit confusing because your Pot Control and Draw (good semi-bluff) range play quite differently I think.

Nothing says you can't call a float on the turn and show down ace high with your NFD.

Originally Posted by noble007

This is an area of my game that is pretty weak.

I saw ISF respond to another thread where SB was PFR BB called SB checked low dry flop and ISF said he would bet and plan 3 barrelling, I didn't get it. Anyway I thought maybe we could do something dumb like come up with a list of like the top 5-10 spots to double/triple barrel and the reasons behind them.

I'll try start it (with the basics) feel free to add your own or suggest taking one away if it is a bad suggestion etc.

TRUNK CONCEPT:
Barrel when your range > their range, and their range is weak and can't stand ample aggression. (New Input)

TOP 5 Double Barrelling spots

1.Often Double Barrel Overcards T-A (if they don't improve a pair and draw type range.)
Why this works - We can represent those high card hands as the PFR also villains flop call indicated he probably had a lower pocket pair or a top pair hand (That is now second pair) or a draw - that probably wasn't improved by this overcard.
E.g. 'Pair & Draw type range' - you wouldn't dbl barrel KT flop on A turn or QT flop on K turn


2. Often DBL Barrel Brick turn on Draw heavy flop
Why this works - Villain most likely has a straight/flush draw on Js8c4s so if turn is a red 2 it is unlikely to have improved his range so you can fire the 2nd barrel & represent tptk+?
New input: Might work well with Ace high hands esp. IP - because you beat their missed draws on the river if they do call.

3. To say F U floater?
Any GS+/any turn where the flop was dry? Why this might work - floater is often floating hard to hit flops to see if you give up on turn and when you don't he folds alot?

4. Maybe if you turn a flush draw? (That doesn't improve a pair and a draw type range.)
Why: You have outs if called and your hand is diguised so you might get paid off he does have a real hand.
Maybe less likely if you turn a straight draw?
Why: Because it's more likely to have improved his range.
E.g. you have 78 flop is QT4 turn is a 9, not a good spot or JQ on 97 flop turn is a Ten also probably bad

TOP 5 Triple Barrelling spots

1. All the draws brick off
Why this works - I 'think' because villains range for check calling or calling 2 streets on a drawy board is usually a draw so you can fire the third barrel if it doesn't get there?
New input: Might work better vs. fish (as they are more likely to have a missed draw in this spot?)

2. The third overcard hits?
Why this might work - If you barrelled an 964 flop on a J turn and now there is a K on the river, if he is holding a pocket pair or a 9 that didn't believe you on the turn he can't think he beats much on the river.

3. When it looks like the PFR/Caller has a 'B' Range hand that is going for pot control and can't stand 3 bets?
I don't know when this is? (ISF suggestion at the top looked like one of these situations.)

Some of the many things I don't know...
What situations would you only DBL barrel if you had a draw but not without one.
What situations would you triple barrel if you already fired at like and K/A turn and it didn't work
Any other suggestions or criticisms of the above spots

Or maybe even a link if someone like this has already been covered

Jesus there's an insane amount to write on this but since im tweaking out im just going to write some points down.
The A5 hand you posted is a great example of some concepts of triple barreling.
1. You have nut hands in your range
2. Your opponent doesnt
3. Your opponent has a range that isnt likely to fold to one bet
4. You have some equity against his flop and turn c/c range.

First and foremost, it starts with equity. You bet what has good equity. AA has great equity on a A22 board. KTss has pretty good equity on a Q74ssx board, but has better equity versus big pot ranges than say a made hand like 55.

I think what to double barrel is simple and it was pretty well covered in the theory exercise thread. Double barrel the best combination of cards that improve your range and fail to improve opps range; cards that increase the strength of your range and dont strengthen opps range. The next factor I'd consider is how strong my range is compared to his, and how many nut hands I have in my range.

The last main factor I'd consider, and I think this tends to be more important for triple barrels than double barrels, is do we think opp will call in this situation given game flow and theoretical tendencies. If he likes to call when draws miss, if he doesn't tend to fold top pair, does he call river most of the time when he calls the turn.

In my experience draws missing is a terrible reason to triple barrel, but a great reason to not. First off as long as someone doesnt bluff a draw you can just check and win with even ace, or king high, better chances with bottom pair. Second, when a draws miss it means your triple barrel bluffing range missed and opp is now more "obligated" to call.

Thanks for taking the time to give that response ISF, I've tried to incorporate it all into the 'summary', as I said it is a really a weak part of my game.

At the moment (As I've been mostly grinding low stakes) most of my profit comes from extracting value from weaker ranges and I've never really worked on thinking about how many hands I can get to fold & why etc. beyond the pretty basic double barrelling situations K/A turn etc.

Just wanted to say this is a great thread and deserved more credit than it has been receiving.

These concepts are meant for thinking players correct? Other TAGs etc? Do you guys think these barreling concepts would apply to a lot of players at NL 50 (where I play)? Or do you think there are not enough opponents at this level to realize hands/ranges you are trying to represent?

Yeah I think most of these concepts apply more to regulars except for maybe barrelling Q-A turns (that don't improve their flop calling range) vs. weak players.

Why: I think even though weak players call your CB with a much wider range of hands it doesn't mean they're capable of folding them on later streets, I think you're better off value betting more thinly vs. them as opposed to trying to bluff/barrell them more.
(Their 'Went to Showdown' Stat is useful here.) Just my opinion though.

Note: Some of the concepts with question marks above still need to be verified by better/other players though.

Nice work Noble, hope this thread continues to improve!

Originally Posted by noble007

Yeah I think most of these concepts apply more to regulars except for maybe barrelling Q-A turns (that don't improve their flop calling range) vs. weak players.

Why: I think even though weak players call your CB with a much wider range of hands it doesn't mean they're capable of folding them on later streets, I think you're better off value betting more thinly vs. them as opposed to trying to bluff/barrell them more.
(Their 'Went to Showdown' Stat is useful here.) Just my opinion though.

Note: Some of the concepts with question marks above still need to be verified by better/other players though.

I don't think that's necessarily true for all weak players, you see a lot of "call any flop with any hand at all, fold most turns" fish nowadays
it's like turn double barrel is the new cbet

Originally Posted by iopq

Originally Posted by noble007

Yeah I think most of these concepts apply more to regulars except for maybe barrelling Q-A turns (that don't improve their flop calling range) vs. weak players.

Why: I think even though weak players call your CB with a much wider range of hands it doesn't mean they're capable of folding them on later streets, I think you're better off value betting more thinly vs. them as opposed to trying to bluff/barrell them more.
(Their 'Went to Showdown' Stat is useful here.) Just my opinion though.

Note: Some of the concepts with question marks above still need to be verified by better/other players though.

I don't think that's necessarily true for all weak players, you see a lot of "call any flop with any hand at all, fold most turns" fish nowadays
it's like turn double barrel is the new cbet

Floating and giving up to a bet on the turn is ultra common in micros now.

[QUOTE="tomYa my question is a little open ended with a lot of variables. I love the concept of barreling cards that help our perceived range and checking behind cards that help our opponents range. Seems like it should be a no brainer but maybe not put in quite the right words for me. Great poasts

I have to say, this is a quality thread. I hope this discussion continues by the regulars here, because this is also a part of my game I need great improvement on. Thanks noble for starting this up and everyone else who contributes.

i just read a little bit but heres something to think about

"The turn is an Overcard Ten-Ace

Why: Because as the PFR our range has alot of strong broadway-hands (TT-AA,AT-AK,KQ etc.) & the PFC's range has alot of low-medium pocket pairs and suited connector type hands so a broadway card on the turn strengthens our range & fails to improve opps range.
Exceptions: You wouldn't DBL barrell an Over-card turn that also improved a pair and a draw type range.
E.g. An Ace turn on KT flop or a K turn on QT flop. (Why because even though the card strengthened our range it also strengthened opps most likely flop calling range.) "
if u think they have something like KJ on a KTx flop, betting the ace on the turn can be bad since they are probably calling again since they have equity+you could be bluffing. but since they don't/can't call on the river that much, betting the turn can be pretty good when you know you are betting the river

"5. The flop was dry & missed your range?
Mmm. Not sure about this one but say on an 822 flop, I feel like your CB gets called by a wide range even Ace high for value because they don't think you have much so on any turn when you fire again they're like doh! He probably has something and fold that marginal crap. Not sure about that one though. "
thats definitely a spot to fire more than one. the thing is when you fire barrels you don't have to be trying to get them to fold good one pair hands, you just know they have enough ace high and low pocket pair hands that they have to fold to a bet.

when their flop and turn calling range has lots of pair + str8 draws in it it s great to 3 barrel w overs, nut draws, etc. sure you get owned some of the time when they re pot controlling w TPGK but that s a small % of the time vs most players

think 8TJr board w AK. when i see that spot i basically 3 barrel always both in and oop unless turn/riv brings Q or 9

err... Q would be a pretty good card in that example lol

lol the Q, thanks for the great input Gabe & Genitruc, I've added a 'pair & straight draw' triple barrel scenario based off your guys input and also altered 'the flop was dry and missed your range' spot.

Also thanks 4 the good feedback from others threads been getting.