4 Hands, £55($105) @ £25NL and a Headache!!!!

Hi all,

I had an absolute nightmare of a session yesterday. I played for about 2 hours at £25NL 6-max on Will Hill and got annhialated. I was down a total of £75($150) over about 400 hands. The majority of this loss came in these 4 hands and I cannot decide whether it was variance or bad play. The play at WIll Hill is pretty bad with people willing to gamble it up and showdown trash. Lots of LAGGS and people willing to raise with trash. So please give me some assistance with these hands.

Hand Converter won't work with Crypto so they are just links I'm afraid.

Hand 1:
This guy was pretty loose but only over about 30 or so hands, seeing about 50% of flops. Can't remember his exact stats but he was something like this 50/20/3.

http://www.pokerhand.org/?776732

Hand 2:
No real reads on this guy but I put him on an Ace on the flop and thought I was good on the flop. Haven't seen many people raising FD so I thought if I repped the Flush on the turn I could take the pot right there.

http://www.pokerhand.org/?776738

Hand 3:
Personally I don't know what I was thinking with this hand. Villain is a fish and limps/raises with all sorts of trash. He was at 60/17/2. He sucked out on the river 2-3 times before this hand with no odds to chase and in one case he had nothing on the flop but kept calling and calling to hit runner runner to hit a straight.

http://www.pokerhand.org/?776747

Hand 4:
This Villain I have played about 300 hands with over the last week and he seems quite solid. He runs at about 30/12/2 but is capable of making some moves. About 2 hands before this on another table I stacked him when my flopped 2-pair boated on the river and he pushed into me with his slowplayed, flopped flush.

http://www.pokerhand.org/?776756

Anyway let me know where I went wrong and what you would ahve done. It would also be nice if you could put these villains on hands because I couldn't (except the last one). I will post results after a few comments.

Seems like you got coolered. I see the same play on prima and honestly, it's nigh impossible to put these people on hands or know where you are at most of the time. I think the best approach is from a game-theory perspective.

A few things I'm doing to counter this:
- I'm raising more preflop. First hand your PFR is where it all went wrong imo. You'll get too many callers and you're giving them too good of a price to suck out on you. In hand 1 I'd make it 1.5 preflop. Hand 2 I'd either raise to 1.5-2 preflop or just be in check/call (small bets) mode postflop with TP. Hand 3 I don't call a PFR personally with KJ. As played looks fine, although you can call flop too to keep the pot small. Hand 4 fine. My standard PFR is now 5BB-6BB, and I'm even thinking of upping it on certain tables.
- keep the pot smaller with TP, so find some checks unless you have a specific feeling this particular guy in the hand with you is gonna keep calling with any pair he made. I'm especially wary with value bets on the river.. seems many of them play their monsters passively and try to get their value on the river. (like: I PRF, one caller I flop TP, check, I cbet, call.. turn c/c.. river check I bet, raise I call.. he flopped a set)
- fold to minraises unless you've seen someone do it more often

Jack, I think you're not quite right on a couple of things.

First of all, 4x (if you're open raising) is perfectly adequate on all but the most aggressive Crypto £25 tables (and it's possible OP was on aggressive ones - certainly I don't recognise the LAGGy nightmare he outlines in his first post). And more importantly, the more you raise PF, the more of a struggle you're going to have keeping the pot small with marginal hands post-flop - and Sklansky agrees with me (or possibly vice versa ).

I also think Value bets on the river with TPGK+ are fine unless you have reason to believe otherwise. Sure, so people slowplay then go mad on the river but by and large, it doesn't happen. If some of these bets are blocking bets more than value bets, then that works as well.

Originally Posted by biondino

Jack, I think you're not quite right on a couple of things.

First of all, 4x (if you're open raising) is perfectly adequate on all but the most aggressive Crypto £25 tables (and it's possible OP was on aggressive ones - certainly I don't recognise the LAGGy nightmare he outlines in his first post). And more importantly, the more you raise PF, the more of a struggle you're going to have keeping the pot small with marginal hands post-flop - and Sklansky agrees with me (or possibly vice versa ).

I also think Value bets on the river with TPGK+ are fine unless you have reason to believe otherwise. Sure, so people slowplay then go mad on the river but by and large, it doesn't happen. If some of these bets are blocking bets more than value bets, then that works as well.

My reasoning is this: I only raise big hands, not SCs, and people call will anything, so I'll raise more because a) I put more money in when I'm most likely ahead, b) it cuts down the amount of callers. Basically, I'd raise as much as I knew they'd still call with their crappy hands. Like, if I knew I'd get callers, I'd open shove AA/KK every time. (extreme example but I hope you see my point)

Or, which do you prefer: raise AK 4BB get 2 callers 12BB pot, or raise AK 6BB 1 caller 12 BB pot (ignoring blinds)?

(btw, in hand 1, HERO raises 4BB after two limpers so a 6BB raise here is standard even by the conventional 4BB+1BB per limper).

About river value bets.. genitruc said the same thing as you (ie people will never c/r the river) but I'm seeing it so often that I'm simply adapting. And now that I'm checking behind more, I'm seeing flushes/sets etc even though these people never showed any strength. So I agree, if people will donk into me with their made hands on the river, value bets are gold, but my experience currently is different.

Thanks for your responses guys. They are appreciated. I just want to clear a couple of things up though.

Originally Posted by jackvance

- I'm raising more preflop. First hand your PFR is where it all went wrong imo. You'll get too many callers and you're giving them too good of a price to suck out on you. In hand 1 I'd make it 1.5 preflop.

Originally Posted by jackvance

btw, in hand 1, HERO raises 4BB after two limpers so a 6BB raise here is standard even by the conventional 4BB+1BB per limper).

I didn't raise in Hand 1, I called the raise. If it is limped to me I am raising 4xBB + 1xBB per limper. I didn't re-raise this hand because I have been having problems with playing big pots with TPGK type hands and so I like to try to keep the pots quite small. Does this sound right with AQ? I would probably re-raise AK, TT+ but thats pretty much all.

In this particular hand the Villain (Yafox) was very loose and had played trash in the hands I had seen. Based on the fact he limped and then called raise OOP and the flop I was pretty sure I was ahead.

Originally Posted by biondino

and it's possible OP was on aggressive ones - certainly I don't recognise the LAGGy nightmare he outlines in his first post).

I am surprised you say this. I know you have been at the Crypto sites for while after reading your blogs. The tables I am at normally have 2-3 players with VP$IP at 40%+ PFR at 15%+ and post flop agg at 2+. Some are worse than others.

The table stats at these tables were VP$IP 40%+ PFR about 18%. And had 3-4 of these players at them along with 1-2 tighter players but still pretty loose. All the players were raising SC as well as their big hands. The difference being they would call down with their SC's regardless of whether they hit.

They were pretty crazy but I thought I would do well their as I am normally playing strong hands or hands with good implied odds.

1.
if we're way ahead of villains range in hand 1 i dont see a reraise being bad, were only 130bbs deep so decisions wont be too difficult. However calling is fine. Post flop is more a check/call turn blok river line for me, but maybe im wrong. I dont think this is badly played.
2.
definite reraise preflop to isolate. Hand plays so differnently post flop. As played he has TT/AT a lot IMO.
call the flop fold the turn, opp isnt folding his hand here IMO even if he doesnt have a flush.
3.
seems ok, dunno about the flop raise, but i cant see a better line. Maybe bet turn to stop overcard suckouts?
4.
What do you beat here? Id have to know opp sucked a little to showdown on river.

Thanks for the comments Miffed.

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

1.
3.
seems ok, dunno about the flop raise, but i cant see a better line. Maybe bet turn to stop overcard suckouts?

I know what you mean. My thinking was that I wanted to get rid of any draws to the flush and if I got a call I could dump the hand on the turn to aggression. I didn't want to call as I felt I still wouldn't know where I was. On the river because of such a small bet I had to call.

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

4.
What do you beat here? Id have to know opp sucked a little to showdown on river.

I put him on a J definately but felt he was trying to bet me out of a split pot. I couldn't put him on AJ as he only completed and I couldn't see him completing ,KJ,QQ or AA either. The only possible hands that beat me that I felt he had were J2 and QJ.

Anyway, I think you will be surprised at the hands they showed down.

Hand 1: 7s 6h
Hand 2: Ac Ah
Hand 3: 8h 4h
Hand 4: Jc Qs