400nl- Tough (or easy?) riv decision- discuss

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG ($533.50)
MP ($429)
CO ($655.60)
Button ($239.40)
Hero ($616)
BB ($400)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T, T.
1 fold, MP raises to $12, CO raises to $36, 1 fold, Hero calls $34, 1 fold, MP calls $24.

Flop: ($112) 7, 4, T (3 players)
Hero checks, MP checks, CO bets $84, Hero calls $84, MP folds.

Turn: ($280) Q (2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks.

River: ($280) 8 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $535.6 (All-In)

Hero??

Villain is herb somethin or other who seems to be a lag, and a thinking player, though I havent played too many big pots with him.

I would have raised the flop and led the turn. As played I have no idea where you are at? That's why I hardly ever slowplay my sets.

Call and NH. Very nice post. I'll put my two cents in after I get flamed for advocating it.

I c/bomb the turn, He pretty much is betting any hand here that we care about.

I would bet/push the flop.

When you just call preflop it looks much as much like u have 99/JJ/QQ as TT. A lead for like 1/2 pot would probably prompt a raise from his holdings that you are looking to stack. Depending on his raise size and your reads u can decide to call and check/push turn or just 3bet the flop all in.
When you check the flop and opp bets, raising looks extremely settish and calling is not optimal either because he is in position on a drawy board and will exercise pot control on many turn cards.

Originally Posted by nutsinho

I would bet/push the flop.

When you just call preflop it looks much as much like u have 99/JJ/QQ as TT. A lead for like 1/2 pot would probably prompt a raise from his holdings that you are looking to stack. Depending on his raise size and your reads u can decide to call and check/push turn or just 3bet the flop all in.
When you check the flop and opp bets, raising looks extremely settish and calling is not optimal either because he is in position on a drawy board and will exercise pot control on many turn cards.

Agreed, however if sauce has a very laggy image (not quite sure, he is normally very laggy but opp may not know this), I like a flop c/r because it looks so much like a set. However, instead of half pot i like a 3/4ths to full pot lead, as if he doesn't raise it makes the pot deeper (and he's surely not folding this flop).
But how bout comment as played on river?

If the river is the only decision you're looking to analyze, I think it's a pretty ez fold (lol captain obvious) since his line matches so perfectly with a c-bet with AdKx that didn't want to get bet off of the turn. Obv he can be bluffing here and it would be a hero call if you made it.

bet/3bet all looks pretty good here considering how horrible the board is for any hand opp is going to want to play that isnt toally air.

i think i agree with ISF that this is a call, interested in others' thoughts though

I think river is a pretty easy fold as well. Yes it's a perfect card for villain to bluff after you check, but then again it's very likely he has AdKx. Overall, I just don't think this call is +ev, so I fold.

Ok, all of you bet/3bettors out there... arent we losing a bet from AK AQ and how can this possibly be better than a check raise??

Originally Posted by sauce123

Ok, all of you bet/3bettors out there... arent we losing a small bet from AK AQ and how can this possibly be better than a check raise that may make him play his good hands very cautiously causing us to lose much bigger bets??

[/b]

I prefer a c/r on the flop.

Also my std line on this flop is a check raise I did this to balance out the times when I C/C flop with JJ 99 and FD and cant stand a turn bet

I don't see how leading the flop in a 3-way re-raised pot is anything other than an enormous show of strength. Probably fold river because a lot of good hands are in your range including TT and J J and he's still pushing for 2X pot. On the other hand you pretty much never have the nuts here.

Originally Posted by mcatdog

I don't see how leading the flop in a 3-way re-raised pot is anything other than an enormous show of strength. How would you play JJ-QQ in this hand then?
Probably fold river because a lot of good hands are in your range including TT and J J and he's still pushing for 2X pot. On the other hand you pretty much never have the nuts here. Opp is very clearly representing the nuts so its irrelevant what lesser hand we might have.

[quote="nutsinho"]

Originally Posted by mcatdog

How would you play JJ-QQ in this hand then?

I'd check and see what happens and I sure wouldn't turn them into a bluff by leading for 3/4 pot.

Opp is very clearly representing the nuts so its irrelevant what lesser hand we might have

Just because he's representing the nuts doesn't mean it's irrelevant what he thinks we have. A river overbet when our range has lots of missed draws and other garbage is clearly different from an overbet when our range has plenty of hands with good showdown value, and we should react to them differently.

Stop being so god damn tricky Sauce

What opp is reading a hand well enough to not bet an incredbly tempting semi bluff on the turn and is stupid enough to push a river when there's almost no hands that opp has played this way so far will call with (Unless opp knows sauce is willing to make hero calls, which is probably not the case, and even if this was the case suace's hand looks so weak im amazed opp wouldn't make a weaker value bet with an Ad)

Opp clearly has a hand with either a ton of SD value or absolutely none. And I feel like a hand with a ton of it is playing the river differently.

If villain is indeed good then he's unlikely to bet turn here since he doesn't wanna get raised off his higher flushdraw if he has one (and we just made a flush possibly).

What I just find odd about this hand is the conflict of a seemingly good villan (checking the turn) with making a seemingly donkish play (overpushing the river). This is clearly not how he plays it if he thinks we have a lower flush (which would seem very likely if this wasn't a reraised pot, because the only flush we could have would be A high, so he clearly couldn't put us on that.

This bet just looks way too much like a lagg realizing there is no way with the hand we have that we can call a huge overbet.
Question: Did he think before making the push? How long? How long in relation to the time it took to make most of his moves.

go allin on the flop, you have the nuts and people like their hands

Originally Posted by gabe

go allin on the flop, you have the nuts and people like their hands

I think we've decided that the flop is an easy decision...
Comments on river as played?

i thnk most villains will bet AdKx on the turn as a semibluff as gettin C/R off it isnt a very bad thing.

Originally Posted by sauce123

i think most villains will bet AdKx on the turn as a semibluff as they think getting C/R off it isnt a very bad thing or almost want to get it all in with such a strong draw.

FYP

if a villain wants to get all in on the turn wit a FD then sign me up to play him...

it was a quick push as were most of his moves

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

Originally Posted by gabe

go allin on the flop, you have the nuts and people like their hands

I think we've decided that the flop is an easy decision...
Comments on river as played?

check fold

river isn't ever a question, just cant call here

im way more likely to call a quick all in than a 5 seconds of thought-shove here

Originally Posted by gabe

river isn't ever a question, just cant call here

Exactly why we should call????

Originally Posted by nutsinho

im way more likely to call a quick all in than a 5 seconds of thought-shove here

there are 4 diamonds and pot odds suck, he could also be bluffing with a better hand

How could he be bluffing with the best hand?? lay me out a scenario for that and I think this is a clear fold...

if he had QQ, he would be bluffing to get you off a diamond, but he would have the best hand if called. same if he had AoXd (with low x) that he reraised with pf

wtf? CR the flop. They obviously like their hands enough to raise and then 3-bet respectively PF then follow it up with a strong c-bet. I'd make it $25o then push any turn if called. I like a CR AI too and let an over pair think I have a flush draw.

Gabe, I can't believe a good villain would bluff with QQ to get me off of a diamond, that hand is gonna be good in a SD 75% plus of the time and he would also bet turn.

I think his bet is representing two things Adx or nothing. I think any other diamond hand (maybe even the ace) would vbet smaller and/or check as any diamond has a ton of showdown value here imo.

So what is his bet/check/shove representing? Perhaps a cleverly played AJoff with the Ad kind of hand, but what else? And why wouldn't villain semi bluff turn and or bet smaller on river with a strong flush.

Basically I don't understand y the villain you decribed Gabe would turn a hand with so much sd value into a bluff?

PS: I really respect and agree with most of ur posts so maybe im missing something fundamental here in this hand> Sauce

75%? care to explain?

Ugh I definitely pulled that number out of my ass but what I was trying to get across is MOST of the time I think trip queens will be best. A flush is definitely in my range but when I call a re raise OOP we can discount suited connectors from my range entirely (as I would be raising AQs and AKs I think). That leaves 99-QQ as the majority of my range (though I dont know if villain knows this, and I may also call with other pairs as MP plays badly and CO is aggro.

And as with position here how many ppl in this forum can honestly say they turn top set into a bluff??

Im tired...

yeah its possible for him to be bluffing with a better hand but its not likely in this particular spot imo. At higher levels there is mor nth level thinking such that this is a clear fold, but i think theres an argument for a call against this guy

You shouldve raised the flop. You have the nuts right now and you want a big pot. Also, if he as an overpair he's drawing slim and you want to get it in with the best of it. The check on the turn is weak because villian is representing a big pair. Unless he has QQ, its unlucky he turned a flush. You have to bet to see where your hand stands. On the river, I'm folding. There are 4 cards that beat your flush and its an overbet.

this is an easy fold IMO. Villain has to be bluffing >60% of the time to make this call, and while i could see him leveling you here, i dont think you will ever be good that much of the time.

Originally Posted by locks1018

On the river, I'm folding. There are 4 cards that beat your flush and its an overbet.

hero doesnt have any flush, so there are 9 flushes that beat him.

flop is gross

my theory that the games really havn't gotten that much harder is being proven true by the day

Originally Posted by sauce123

Basically I don't understand y the villain you decribed Gabe would turn a hand with so much sd value into a bluff?

because they want you to fold a better hand...

im not saying this is the case in this particular hand but its something to think about

Originally Posted by mcatdog

I don't see how leading the flop in a 3-way re-raised pot is anything other than an enormous show of strength.

Isn't warm calling a threebet preflop from the worst position at the table already an enormous show of strength?

Originally Posted by sauce123

I think his bet is representing two things Adx or nothing.

I think you are at least twice as likely to see the Ad here as anything else, so I would fold.

I guess we need a sicker read on opp to make this call.

Ok well I tanked and called and he showed AK offsuit.

I'm a station.

In conclusion Gabe brings up a good point that against higher level opponents capable of bluffing a small flush or QQ this is an insta fold as I have terrible pot odds and a now terrible hand.

I still think that against aggro opponents my flop line is fine, not as a standard line but one to use a third of the time or less. Underrepping the nuts against a habitual 2nd barreler and semi bluffing player can't be that bad imo, as long as I think I have a good read on his thought process.

I also think that occasionally I should be bet/3betting this flop, with my standard and most +ev line being a flop checkraise.

Realize that my line here is not a check/call for pot control or anything of that kind, its to induce a large turn bet and get most of my opponent's stack in the pot on a draw or with a big pair drawing to 2 outs, I think some opponents may be capable of laying down a big pair to a C/R, shove line.

I thought his betting pattern in context of this player represented exactly one hand: a stone cold bluff. Call me crazy... Sauce.

Originally Posted by sauce123

Ok well I tanked and called and he showed AK offsuit.

offsuit.. as in AcKh or offsuit as in AdKc? =)

big difference!

NO DIAMONDS!!! ship tha monies

wow, what a horrible call

no offense obviously

This call isn't as bad as it looks.

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

This call isn't as bad as it looks.

people bluffing you for 2x the pot a lot?

Originally Posted by Renton

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

This call isn't as bad as it looks.

people bluffing you for 2x the pot a lot?

Sometimes they do.

thinly veiled brag obv

nice thread. i think ur call makes some sense, still i'd lean toward folding. and i'd be more careful making hero calls vs him now.
other than what's been said, i don't see why he can't show up with the Kd as a sorta thin value bet, assuming he could think what you're probably thinking...
and i agree some will just take a free card with the Ad the majority of the time.

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

This call isn't as bad as it looks.

you arent good here > 2/3 of the time, so IMO it is as bad as it looks.

Originally Posted by koolmoe

thinly veiled brag obv

Roffle

this is not necessarily a brag it's an interesting post esp since every street is worth discussing

btw in this spot I'm reminded of a post Renton made where he C/raised JJ on a KJ10 flop in a big pot multi way OOP. Gabe made a great post about leading and I'd love to linky to it since it's probably relevant to a situation like this.

Renton? Any chance of finding this among your 4324823748237 posts? I'm positive you had JJJ on a KJ10 w 2 diamond board and the discussion was about C/R vs leading.

Originally Posted by Rondavu

Originally Posted by Renton

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

This call isn't as bad as it looks.

people bluffing you for 2x the pot a lot?

Sometimes they do.

sure they are, but this is extremely rare

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...+reraised+deep

I thought it was a very well veiled brag....

and worth discussing

Sauce

You need a lot more of a rock solid read than "seems to be a lag, and a thinking player" to make a call like this.

Here's the biggest pot (in bb's) ive ever won in my career, and i had a rock solid read.

***** Hand History for Game 4031658615 *****
$100 NL Texas Hold'em - Wednesday, April 19, 21:40:00 ET 2006
Table Table 97151 (Real Money)
Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 2: suban17 ( $113.68 )
Seat 4: Berge20 ( $96 )
Seat 7: rlay1 ( $66.03 )
Seat 9: RossCounty ( $218.24 )
Seat 10: Blantons ( $98.35 )
Seat 1: Renton555 ( $292.85 )
Seat 3: SevenOut007 ( $413.89 )
Seat 8: morissa ( $143.90 )
Seat 6: etjawi ( $176.50 )
Seat 5: JUSTinc05 ( $89 )
JUSTinc05 posts small blind [$0.50].
etjawi posts big blind [$1].

** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Renton555 [ 8s 8d ]

rlay1 raises [$2].
morissa folds.
RossCounty folds.
Blantons folds.
Renton555 calls [$2].
suban17 folds.
SevenOut007 raises [$6].
Berge20 folds.
JUSTinc05 folds.
etjawi folds.
rlay1 calls [$4].
Renton555 calls [$4].

** Dealing Flop ** [ Kh, Kc, 5c ]

rlay1 checks.
Renton555 checks.
SevenOut007 bets [$10].
rlay1 folds.
Renton555 calls [$10].

** Dealing Turn ** [ Kd ]

Renton555 checks.
SevenOut007 bets [$276].
Renton555 is all-In.
SevenOut007 calls [$0.85].

** Dealing River ** [ Ac ]

SevenOut007 shows [ 6d, 6c ] a full house, Kings full of sixes.
Renton555 shows [ 8s, 8d ] a full house, Kings full of eights.
Renton555 wins $590.20 from the main pot with a full house, Kings full of eights.

lol I remember that post Renton, that was sick.

edit : also, thx for the linky

Just for fun I'll paste the OP from the thread I was thinking of accompanied by gabe's reasoning for leading :

Villain is a decent lag. I got two questions here.

First, what is the best line for max value?

I figure its either:

1. Lead weak and almost always get raised, then reraise and look to call a push.

2. Lead strong and probably get called, then check raise the turn.

3. Check raise flop.


My other question: are stacks deep enough to worry at all about AQ or KK? Or are we getting stacked in that scenario?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

SB ($230.35)
Hero ($540.62)
UTG ($188.40)
MP ($236.70)
CO ($431.70)
Button ($182.90)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J , J . SB posts a blind of $1.
UTG calls $2, MP raises to $4, CO raises to $15, 2 folds, Hero calls $13, UTG calls $13, MP calls $11.

Flop: ($61) K s, Td , Jd (4 players)






gabe said :

betting (leading) close to full pot (truth is i would probably bet at least 3/4, but not necessarily full pot) isn't designed to give you info. its designed to build the because of the awesome strength of your hand.

the only info you are worried about is what they glean from your actions. you want them to think you have a pair so they will call you down with a perceived better pair. weak leading then overbet pushing is not the way to do this on this type of board. i might weak lead if the board had less draws on it (because a weak lead would make sure we saw a turn, and my action wouldnt get killed by many cards like it would on this board), and then my c/r turn allin would be closed to pot sized.

with that said, i dont think c/ring this flop is bad either, but leading in this spot has advantages. when you have a big hand and you dont have relative position, you want to trap the field (in this case its only 1 person) between you and the PFR. like if MP had AK, CO had air, if you both check to CO who bets and you raise, MP folds AK alot there unless they are huge fish. if you lead they might even call with something like QJs just because they didnt factor in a person behind them.

Originally Posted by Bode-ist

you arent good here > 2/3 of the time, so IMO it is as bad as it looks.

No, he "only" needs to be good 40% of the time to call. If you're good 50% or more of the time you should always call an all-in it's not possible for pot odds to be worse than that.

PWNED