5/10 - cold 4-betting JJ ...... and then folding?

-villain is a pretty aggro reg who plays higher stakes, but we haven't had any meaningful hands together in a long time
-last orbit button raised, SB 3bet and I cold 4bet air and they both folded
-I am 4betting JJ here to take down the dead money (instead of flatting and having button flat and going 3way).
-I am 4betting JJ with the intention of folding if tagg button shoves (is folding bad IF he has 100bb's that is. In this case obv I'm calling shortstack)
-I am 4betting JJ with the intention of calling an SB shove
-SB small 5-bets... now I'm worried. Best line?


$5/$10 No Limit Holdem
5 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($980.00)
CO ($1259.00)
BTN ($463.91)
SB ($2014.00)
Hero (BB) ($1275.00)

Pre-flop: ($15, 5 players) Hero is BB
2 folds, BTN raises to $30, SB raises to $110, Hero raises to $250, BTN folds, SB raises to $410, Hero ??

whats wrong with flatting and playing this multiway? If button comes along as a shortstack it should help you find out postflop where you are as SB's continuation bet will commit him if BTN wakes up and decides to stack off. Plus, you have position on the preflop raiser and your hand will be somewhat transparent, which IMO means that SB will play more straightforward.

I can also think calling and trying to induce a bluff 4bet squeeze from the shortstack is good, since you're calling him anyway and if he 5bets you here you'll be owned.

But, take that as it may, I play FR but this seems to be a standard spot.

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

I can also think calling and trying to induce a bluff 4bet squeeze from the shortstack is good, since you're calling him anyway and if he 5bets you here you'll be owned.

I think this is definitely a good reason for flatting, cause we get more information on the strength of SB's hand if he shoves over a button shove.

Given that I had just cold 4bet last orbit, I kind of wanted someone to monkey shove. I did NOT want a weird small 5bet from SB though... would have been much happier calling off a shove.

Originally Posted by griffey24

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

I can also think calling and trying to induce a bluff 4bet squeeze from the shortstack is good, since you're calling him anyway and if he 5bets you here you'll be owned.

I think this is definitely a good reason for flatting, cause we get more information on the strength of SB's hand if he shoves over a button shove.

Given that I had just cold 4bet last orbit, I kind of wanted someone to monkey shove. I did NOT want a weird small 5bet from SB though... would have been much happier calling off a shove.

I might be wrong here, but I dont know if your cold 4bet bluff to value ratio is high enough to think you will get 5 bet shoved on. If it is, do you think villain will think so? Wouldn't you need like a 3-1 bluff/value spot like this to think that you'll get bluff shoved or you need your opponent to think that too?

I mean, if you're cold 4betting JJ+ and AK for value you'd have to be cold 4betting a ton, anywhere from an additional 6-9 % of your range to think that you can induce a 5bet bluff.

Again, maybe my numbers are mixed up somewhere and thinking that you'd rather call a shove than a 4bet is up in the air too. Unless you have prior knowledge that he shoves AK here and weak 4bets QQ+, and if that was the case then I don't think you'd post the hand history.

I just want to say this is a clear 4bet if BTN is ~100bb and aggro reg. Him being a half-stack and somewhat fishy as well makes SB's range stronger here. Also you're 130bb deep as well, so all these things together with the fact that we have position on SB makes me wanna flat it.

I like the 4bet and calling the SB raise. I'd be careful though on the flop though. At least you have position. Thats another reason I like the 4bet/call.

yeah i see no reason to 4bet here this deep vs such a strong 3-betting range to begin with (he's not 3-betting with air vs a 50bb donk too often). I would flat and usually flat QQ+ AK as well.

Please don't 4-bet here even with reads... playing big pairs like this, in position and against people who are playing mostly polarized 3-betting ranges now-a-days is so bad.

I flat the 3 bet all day....I'd much rather play some postflop poker, in position, with as high a SPR ratio as possible, rather than get into a preflop flip against his 5 bet shoving range.

Also, as mentioned earlier, an added bonus is the BTN will sometimes shove light here, due to all the money in the pot, and you also get to see how the SB reacts to this before you make your decision. (obv snap is BTN shoved and SB folded)

The higher the SPR ratio the more valuable your position is, try and keep it as high as possible preflop. (in most cases)

Flat the threebet I agree, but as played I'd probably just call and not continue unless we hit a Jack.