AA vs Unknown

POKERSTARS GAME #7343907998: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($0.50/$1.00) - 2006/12/07 - 19:56:37 (ET)
Table 'Capricorn II' 6-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: MDoranD ($389.45 in chips)
Seat 2: Renton555 ($134.50 in chips)
Seat 3: meeks16 ($135.70 in chips)
Seat 4: clashes ($96.50 in chips)
Seat 5: adybou ($14.10 in chips)
Seat 6: NutMucka ($418.70 in chips)
clashes: posts small blind $0.50
adybou: posts big blind $1

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Renton555 [Ac Ah]

NutMucka: folds
MDoranD: folds
Renton555: raises $3 to $4
meeks16: calls $4
clashes: calls $3.50
adybou: folds

*** FLOP *** [5h 7c Th]

clashes: checks
Renton555: bets $9
meeks16: raises $10 to $19
clashes: folds
Renton555: raises $43 to $62
meeks16: calls $43

*** TURN *** [5h 7c Th] [3s]

Renton555: bets $68.50 and is all-in

Well, I kno the results but that was a pretty sick hand.

villain has 46o obv.

Looks good to me.

Originally Posted by zenbitz

villain has 46o obv.

I think we have to pay that off. My biggest concern is a set. With no other information I have no problem playing for stacks with AA on this board.

Originally Posted by Fnord

I have no problem playing for stacks with AA on this board.

lol im not concerned with that in the least

im more concerned with whether 3betting the flop was the best line for value

Originally Posted by Renton

im more concerned with whether 3betting the flop was the best line for value

If he's smart enough to check a draw behind, then you can't count on turn-fucking him. So it comes down to what sorts of lines get hands like JJ/QQ/Tx to call you down. Pushing the flop to rep something like AK/Q or other drawish hand trying to look big and scary might do the trick and it also has the nice side effect forcing most draws to fold or make a bad call.

The only problem Renton i see is that you didn't apply a read to your opponent. I can guarantee that 99.99% of villain's holding here is not what villain actually had. It is kinda why I dislike posting for advice/comment on this hand because frankly, had you posted that villain was an idiot then this would be an easy play. But, besides the point, since i know the result of the hand, I chalk it up to villain stupidity than any decent play by your part. See, I was right to never fold AA postflop

well he was unknown, to me.

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

The only problem Renton i see is that you didn't apply a read to your opponent. I can guarantee that 99.99% of villain's holding here is not what villain actually had. It is kinda why I dislike posting for advice/comment on this hand because frankly, had you posted that villain was an idiot then this would be an easy play. But, besides the point, since i know the result of the hand, I chalk it up to villain stupidity than any decent play by your part. See, I was right to never fold AA postflop

um, i think that u are mistaking this hand for another hand you saw me play. He had a set and won my stack.

Originally Posted by Renton

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

The only problem Renton i see is that you didn't apply a read to your opponent. I can guarantee that 99.99% of villain's holding here is not what villain actually had. It is kinda why I dislike posting for advice/comment on this hand because frankly, had you posted that villain was an idiot then this would be an easy play. But, besides the point, since i know the result of the hand, I chalk it up to villain stupidity than any decent play by your part. See, I was right to never fold AA postflop

um, i think that u are mistaking this hand for another hand you saw me play. He had a set and won my stack.

Oh, this isnt the same hand as the guy with A6o that pretty much played the same way? My bad......

If he's fucking retarded, your line is perfect since he might be too stupid to put you on a draw if you push.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Originally Posted by zenbitz

villain has 46o obv.

I think we have to pay that off. My biggest concern is a set. With no other information I have no problem playing for stacks with AA on this board.

For the record, I only posted he has 46o because it's a "sick hand".

Realistically.... you are just hosed here, and this is why people play sets and draws the same.

GODAMNIT I WANNA TALK ABOUT THE BET3BET AS OPPOSED TO THE FLAT CALL.

HACHACACHACACHA.

haven t read comments yet so forgive me if i m repeating shit

lame that villain turned the str8?

In this spot I usually flat call the flop raise and proceed cautiously if flush completes. CR all in would prob be standard on a non-heart turn.

If you think villain is minraising a draw then this is a sexy line to take (since he almost always calls the flop 3-bet).

Would you do this if the board was completely dry?

The big question here is how you wanna approach AA hands where villain is either raising a set or a draw :

-do you want to pay off sets 100% of time when "board doesn't get scary"?
-do you want to chase away draws?

Without a read, basically all suggestions are worthless, since there really isn't any "standard" player. Everyone takes different lines.

What about calling and leading the turn? I never do this with AA-type hands but it could be interesting.

Originally Posted by Genitruc

Would you do this is board was completely dry?

no, i'd flat

this is exactly the topic.

Originally Posted by Renton

Originally Posted by Genitruc

Would you do this is board was completely dry?

no, i'd flat

this is exactly the topic.

well if this is the topic then it seems pretty straightforward

also, it illustrates why semi-bluffing is such a powerful play vs aware opponents.

If we assume villain will make this minraise (or any flop raise) with either 2 pr/set or big draw then waiting for the turn to get our money in w AA is always the correct play :

-we lose less money by proceeding more cautiously when draws hit

-we price villains out of draws w 1 card to come

-we potentially get to showdown cheaper when villain has the 2pr/set since board should slow him down as much as it slows us down

The crux of the matter is what % of villain's range is a big draw vs 2pr/set. If it's 50/50 then mathematically it's always better to float call the flop and wait for a safe turn to get lots of monies in the pot.

In OP hand, if villain is NEVER making this minraise w bare oesd but likely w 2pr, set and huge draws (i.e. 89h) then it's def more +ev to flat call flop and c raise/lead big on safe turn (no 6 no J no heart... sux I admit).

Other problem here is whether or not villain ever plays smaller overpairs this way. Just comes down to reads basically... But according to all the crap I've just written, it would seem the optimal line would be the flat call on this board. Personally, I'd usually flat call AA to the flop minraise without a read even on very dry boards. But I tend to play overpairs weak.

Originally Posted by Genitruc

If we assume villain will make this minraise (or any flop raise) with either 2 pr/set or big draw

I strongly disagree with this assumption.

Also, I'll make the observation that how other people who look like you tend to play hands feeds into the types of hands you'll be put on. There are spots where my peers tend to be out-of-balance towards one side and hence I'm out-of-balance towards the other end of hands.

the above-mentioned assumption didn't in any way mean I typically put flop min-raisers on monsters/big draws

I'm actually not sure what the purpose of that assumption was. But it definitely wasn't to reduce flop minraise to monsters...

the reason i felt compelled to threebet the flop is that theres about 25 or so turncards that would put me in a very precarious spot. Sure, if he's raising a draw, then only 8 of those cards hurt me, but i don't know which draw he has, so i have to be afraid of them all.

renton, this seems somewhat standard against an even reasonably aggressive opponent. I think it's played fine against an unknown. If you're just calling the flop raise with a hand as good as AA here then he can profitably raise so many hands behind (assumes you're folding most weaker hands and everything that blanked). Worst case scenario, you're up against a set on the flop and still have 12-13% equity, but there are so many other hands that he can have that you can get value from.

Originally Posted by Renton

GODAMNIT I WANNA TALK ABOUT THE BET3BET AS OPPOSED TO THE FLAT CALL.

HACHACACHACACHA.

on that board i 3bet the flop, call a push probably, unless opp wont bet all on that board. If turn is blank im happy to push and not to call it spewy.

If flop is blank i call and lead if oop or think about a call on turn depending on what i think opp is likely to have (not AT on stars)

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

on that board i 3bet the flop

Given the way these games are playing right now, I like a shove more than 3-betting anything less against most of the field.