All-in on Straight-Flush Draw?

Game # 290120189 - Texas Hold'em No Limit EUR 0,25/0,50 - Table "Uddevalla"
Game ended 2006-03-28 23:13:03 GMT+01:00

Players:
wesan (EUR 49,75 in seat 1)
Primes (EUR 112,80 in seat 2)
Fender (EUR 23,50 in seat 3)
Murd0c77 (EUR 78,20 in seat 4)
-Kasas- (EUR 42,02 in seat 5)
z1ddax (EUR 61,50 in seat 6)

Dealer: Primes
Small Blind: Fender (0,25)
Big Blind: Murd0c77 (0,50)

Murd0c77 was dealt: 4h - 7h

-Kasas- Call (0,50)
z1ddax Fold
wesan Call (0,50)
Primes Fold
Fender Raise (1,40)
Murd0c77 Call (1,15)
-Kasas- Call (1,15)
wesan Call (1,15)

Flop 6h - 5h - Ac

Fender Bet (3,50)
Murd0c77 All-In (76,55)
-Kasas- All-In (40,37)
wesan Fold
Fender Fold
Murd0c77 Payback (36,18)

Turn 6h - 5h - Ac - Kd
River 6h - 5h - Ac - Kd - 2c

Murd0c77 shows: 4h - 7h (high card ace)
-Kasas- shows: Ad - 5c (two pairs, aces and fives)

-Kasas- wins: EUR 87,84 (with two pairs, aces and fives)
Rake: EUR 3,00
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Should I not have pushed all in on the flop? I can't see myself not going broke here.

when you overbet massively like that it usually looks like a draw. especially if this all in move on the flop seems like it's completely out of context compared to the rest of your play (i.e. if you start pushing AI on flop with some frequency, then it might not look so much like a draw in this case). i don't think you needed to go broke here at all, you might take a hit, but you didn't need to double him up on the flop.

take a look at where you were at when you made the decision for all your money by pushing (you didn't call, you pushed):

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1630232
pokenum -h ad 5c - 4h 7h -- 6h 5h ac
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing Ac 6h 5h
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
5c Ad 507 51.21 483 48.79 0 0.00 0.512
7h 4h 483 48.79 507 51.21 0 0.00 0.488

Prbly raise to 10-12 then when he calls push turn.

fold preflop. you are out of position on the table, and out of position against the raiser.

Originally Posted by gabe

fold preflop. you are out of position on the table, and out of position against the raiser.

Bingo. Never call preflop here unless the stacks were 300xbb deep or something, your hand is relatively weak and you're OOP. Playing hands like this are a lot easier in position because you can see everybody reveal the strength of their hand to you. Just fold preflop. As played I don't like the over bet, raise to around 15 and call a push.

i think if utg raised and there was a bunch of callers and you closed the action with 74s, it could be worth seeing

A straight flush draw should not be used as an excuse to get all the money in. If you are always pushing 55/45 edges in a cash game your varience will be through the roof. The advantage of a straight-flush draw is the fold equity. Overbetting the pot by such a large amount destroys your fold equity, IMO.

Originally Posted by Silly String

A straight flush draw should not be used as an excuse to get all the money in. If you are always pushing 55/45 edges in a cash game your varience will be through the roof. The advantage of a straight-flush draw is the fold equity. Overbetting the pot by such a large amount destroys your fold equity, IMO.

i think you contradict yourself.

you get allin with a OESFD because you have an edge and folding equity. overbetting gives you more FE. pushing those edges adds variance, but usually you have alot more FE than you think. also, its great for image when you make the same play with sets.

i think against a huge fish calling a bet is just fine. against a tight player pushing is better because they are more likely to fold and less likely to pay you off. against the fish, they are going to pay you off and they aren't folding TPGK much.

This hand happened last night and I immediately thought about this thread. I'm sure the guy put me on AA here (I had him pegged for KK), but this is why folding equity is so important. Yeah, I want to push 55/45 edges.....but if he folds I win his money every time and I lose *never*.

Also, if I piss all over myself and push when he opens on the flop I think he calls here. I decided to triple his initial raise. When he min-raised me back it felt like he was looking for a reason to fold....and I gave it to him by pushing.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

BB ($176)
UTG ($199.50)
Hero ($194.75)
Button ($430.18)
SB ($222.20)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 8, T. SB posts a blind of $1.
1 fold, Hero raises to $8, 2 folds, BB calls $6.

Flop: ($17) 3, J, 9 (2 players)
BB bets $10, Hero raises to $30, BB raises to $50, Hero raises $156.75 (All-In), BB folds.

Final Pot: $253.75

I said overbetting the pot here destroys your fold equity because I believe such a severe overbet incites many calls. I agree that it sounds counter-intuittive.
The opponent must be capable of a fold. That is the key. Many people see such a severe overbet as a bluff or a weak hand that is afraid to see more cards. Often I find a fish on a flush draw here.
I do agree it is great to set up your table image, but at 25NL I have few opponents who remember my table image after 5 orbits.
I like a simple call here as I feel it isn't worth the varience to fight this hard over $6-9. If I do raise, it would have to be all-in. I would hate to raise $18 and then see a blank turn card. Then what, now I'm screwed for pot-odds. I don't hate the all-in, but I believe there are better situations to push with a OESFD. I smooth call here.