Any of you crazy monkey ballin 3ptbb+ winners want $50?

I'm posting this here because I need information from good players. It's also not a software issue, but a strategy issue.

This PokerEV software is irritating me inasmuch as my Won W/O Showdown is negative. I do not know if this is a leak or if it's just how NLHE is. I have seen a ton of these graphs from moderately decent players and they all have a bit lower Total Winnings than Showdown Winnings, yet I recall having come across one a while back by a 25/50 reg or higher who had a bit higher Total Winnings than Showdown Winnings.

Anywais, I'll transfer fifty dorrar on Stars to the first two posters who post graphs of 30k+ hands at 2/4+ beating it for 3ptbb+. I simply just want to see if it's normal to be running so much lower on the green line than the blue and red lines.

I know none of you care about fifty dorrar, but I don't either. I just want some clarification here.

So here's my graph



Here's where you get the software if you don't already know about it. I'm sure you do. http://www.pokerevsoftware.com/

Im not excactly crazy monkey ballin, but if no-one has jumped on it by tomorrow evening I'll post my 2/4 graph, I'm not back at my main computer until then so I don't have access to it. I must say though that 30k hands doesnt say much really. How many hands can you load with the current PokerEV? The last time I tried I couldnt load my entire db.

In general I'd think that a big gap between won w/o sd and total winnings means you're putting too much money into the pot and then folding. This could mean bluffing too much (or in the wrong spots), bet-folding too much and perhaps calling too thin on early streets to give up on river.

If it counts the blinds as won without showdown then it might be negative. Also every time you call to set and miss you lose. Every time you call on a draw and miss you lose w/o showdown.

Originally Posted by HalvSame

Im not excactly crazy monkey ballin, but if no-one has jumped on it by tomorrow evening I'll post my 2/4 graph, I'm not back at my main computer until then so I don't have access to it. I must say though that 30k hands doesnt say much really.

More hands is definitely appreciated, but unneccesary. I'm not looking for a winrate, but for a player who dominates his stake and what his graph looks like. If the red and blue lines are close then the trend of where the green line should be can be seen without a huge sample.

How many hands can you load with the current PokerEV? The last time I tried I couldnt load my entire db.

It's been said that more than 50k tends to get problematic.

In general I'd think that a big gap between won w/o sd and total winnings means you're putting too much money into the pot and then folding. This could mean bluffing too much (or in the wrong spots), bet-folding too much and perhaps calling too thin on early streets to give up on river.

That's the trendy speculation among those who don't really know (like me). I cannot fathom how I'm that spewy, though.

It could be, however, that won w/o showdown will always be neg, and that NLHE structure is that you can only make money when you get paid off in all ins.

Originally Posted by Pelion

If it counts the blinds as won without showdown then it might be negative.

I hope it does. It should. PT does, and it loads from PT.

Also every time you call to set and miss you lose. Every time you call on a draw and miss you lose w/o showdown.

Yes. I do my best at playing postflop, however, and sometimes successfully get the best hand to fold when I set mine or draw. If the green line is not supposed to be that low relatively or if it's supposed to be higher than the other lines, then I will be amazed at how much money better players make by bluffing. I don't believe that's the case except perhaps at higher stakes where maybe there are less showdowns and everybody folds more good hands or something.

Here's 45k hands of 2/4.

Definitely a gap between SB and Showdown winnings.

But look at the sickness of this lifetime (sortof, I made a new db in july) graph of 600NL:

I'm running pretty close to SB in showdown hands, yet my total winnings are sick low. This has to mean that I'm putting in way too much then folding, right?

Thanks. Post or PM me your Stars screenname and city, and I'll send you some mobnies.

Your first graph looks like mine. It looks like you do nicely at 2/4 (6max I presume), so maybe that kind of gap is standard. I would like to see a graph from a higher and better player, however.

Your second graph looks like mine when I play 6max. I suck at shorthanded so much. I know it's because I cannot read laggy players postflop well at all. So probably folding too much and maybe not bluffing enough.

Yeah, it's 6max. I think Pelion has a good point in that the posted and folded blinds will add up to alot, this plus the times we don't hit our draws etc will probably put a gap between SD/total winnings. A huge gap like the one in my second graph should be worrysome. I'd love to see some more graphs to confirm.

As for getting the amount won without showdown up, I think a general thing to look out for is the times you find yourself saying "NOW what do I do" as opposed to saying "THEN what will I do" earlier in the hand. Good, aggressive players are going to put you to the test alot, so better be well prepared for that test. Planning hands properly from start to finish is key.

Not spewing like a total monkey will probably help too .

I would think that if your total winnings were too close to your showdown winnings (or higher) then you may not be taking enough of your great hands to showdown. In other words you are blowing too many people out of the hand before getting full value.

Just another way to look at it.

Some of these are from an older version of pokerEV. Just ignore the teal line and its the same.

Teal is equity adjusted winnings FWIW.




I think this is 5/10 and 10/20 on party, maybe some 25/50.

This thread has a bunch of them (kotkis posted the above):
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...e#Post10410499

SN is IMSAKIDD on stars.

100bb deep I would think....

Originally Posted by pgil

I would think that if your total winnings were too close to your showdown winnings (or higher) then you may not be taking enough of your great hands to showdown. In other words you are blowing too many people out of the hand before getting full value.

Just another way to look at it.

no worries of that happening on my graph for quite some time.

Why is your graph named "copy of arenagirls"?

Originally Posted by HalvSame

Why is your graph named "copy of arenagirls"?

because its saved into the old file where i had my wallpaper for my screen.
see file name
http://www.staylace.com/gallery/gall...s_aloud_in.jpg

Wow the graph IMSA posted is #$%^$% up. The guy had negative showdown winnings but a 6ptBB/100 winrate?

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

Wow the graph IMSA posted is #$%^$% up. The guy had negative showdown winnings but a 6ptBB/100 winrate?

Again, not my graph.

The player is kotkis on 2p2. From what I know, he is very laggy (he is from Sweden or Finland, makes sense

If all the nits have negative money won without showdown, those dollars have to be going to someone, which happens to be kotkis a lot of the time...

Originally Posted by IMSAKIDD

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

Wow the graph IMSA posted is #$%^$% up. The guy had negative showdown winnings but a 6ptBB/100 winrate?

Again, not my graph.

The player is kotkis on 2p2. From what I know, he is very laggy (he is from Sweden or Finland, makes sense

If all the nits have negative money won without showdown, those dollars have to be going to someone, which happens to be kotkis a lot of the time...

Makes sense.

That would be fun, lol.

Originally Posted by IMSAKIDD

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

Wow the graph IMSA posted is #$%^$% up. The guy had negative showdown winnings but a 6ptBB/100 winrate?

Again, not my graph.

The player is kotkis on 2p2. From what I know, he is very laggy (he is from Sweden or Finland, makes sense

If all the nits have negative money won without showdown, those dollars have to be going to someone, which happens to be kotkis a lot of the time...

Out of curiousity, would you mind putting up your graph? I hear that you run over 6BB's/100 shortstacking...

Thanks, Choo. 50 dorrar to be sent soon.

I think all of the best players will have a green line above the blue line, and that's because they're stealing better than the rest of us.

Originally Posted by wufwugy

Thanks, Choo. 50 dorrar to be sent soon.

I think all of the best players will have a green line above the blue line, and that's because they're stealing better than the rest of us.

This is not true. Laggier players will, tighter players wont. There are tons of great players who are tight.

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

Originally Posted by wufwugy

Thanks, Choo. 50 dorrar to be sent soon.

I think all of the best players will have a green line above the blue line, and that's because they're stealing better than the rest of us.

This is not true. Laggier players will, tighter players wont. There are tons of great players who are tight.

Usually the biggest winners are the best lags.

It helps to see if you are leaking out of showdown for sure, that maybe you should be more aggro postflop/go to showdown/stop fucking folding.

I'm not gonna post my graph. The 6ptbb/100 was a 15-20k stretch at 3/6 I ran hot at, which just so happened to be posted in a datamine thread. I am also losing without showdown, although only about -.5ptbb/100 or so (in pokerev).

Originally Posted by IMSAKIDD

I'm not gonna post my graph. The 6ptbb/100 was a 15-20k stretch at 3/6 I ran hot at, which just so happened to be posted in a datamine thread. I am also losing without showdown, although only about -.5ptbb/100 or so (in pokerev).

haha ok sorry i asked, just curious.

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

Wow the graph IMSA posted is #$%^$% up. The guy had negative showdown winnings but a 6ptBB/100 winrate?

Sounds kinda like what Doyle used to do back in the day. He made his fortune mainly stealing smaller pots.. when it went to showdown he was usually not a favorite.

im guessing doyle either had 30-45% equity in big pots or was a gigantic favorite occasionally

Originally Posted by jackvance

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

Wow the graph IMSA posted is #$%^$% up. The guy had negative showdown winnings but a 6ptBB/100 winrate?

Sounds kinda like what Doyle used to do back in the day. He made his fortune mainly stealing smaller pots.. when it went to showdown he was usually not a favorite.

Eh, Doyle's "super aggressive play" is probably less aggressive than a lot of good players these days.

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

The guy had negative showdown winnings but a 6ptBB/100 winrate?

My win-rate at 1/2 is comperable and I am a slight winner in Sklansky Bucks and running a lot worse than that. I really like to fuck with the ABC TAggs.