baby steps

2nd hand at table...

PokerStars Game #7329307118: Hold'em No Limit ($1/$2) - 2006/12/06 - 19:21:16 (ET)
Table 'Ani II' 6-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: chardrian ($198 in chips)
Seat 2: vwxyz ($256.65 in chips)
Seat 3: Luci_Loot ($231.40 in chips)
Seat 4: simmoz ($38.85 in chips)
Seat 5: Kelb420 ($31.15 in chips)
Seat 6: tablemaxxxxx ($144.75 in chips)
chardrian: posts small blind $1
vwxyz: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to chardrian [Kd Ad]
Kelb420 said, "nb"
Luci_Loot: raises $5 to $7
simmoz: calls $7
Kelb420: folds
tablemaxxxxx: calls $7
chardrian: ??

Well Simmoz and Tablemaxx are clearly weak, or at least you clearly have them beat. As for Luci_Loot it would be so nice to have stats. I may be a pussy here and flat call as I don't want to die OOP. If I was to raise I'd raise it to about $28 and if called by Luci_Loot check missed flops (Is this stupid?)

I call.

I know I'm oop - but call with AKs???

Why do I want 3 others in the pot with me?

I felt like I had to raise - I just wasn't sure what a standard raise should be... maybe I have lots and lots to learn about this game where there is a weird sliding bar instead of just 3 buttons.

Originally Posted by chardrian

I know I'm oop - but call with AKs???

I know it sounds sucky. But how would you like to raise to 28 and the orignal preflop raiser calls you. The flop comes 952, and you lead out $50, he raise you all in. You just lost 1/3 of your stack. Or what if the flop come K72 and you bet 50 and he pushes? You potentially just lost your whole stack.

or what if he folds to my raise preflop (likely) and I take down $21 right off the bat, or what if the flop comes AK4 and he has AQ and can't fold and I stack him?

I trust myself to get away from a hand or to occasionally run into a cooler. But coldcalling such a good starting hand and allowing 3 others into the pot and increasing the cooling potential just seems weak. But maybe I need to weaken up if I want to get good at NL.

If you're reraising, it needs to be ~$28-$35, but with this many callers I'd be expecting at least one overpair here and to be drawing pretty close to dead.

simozz has no stack so I dont care if he has AA or KK.
if tablemaxxx has AA or KK he is dumb.

So that leaves me with luci.

I guess I still think that raising will define my hand better than smooth calling will.

Either is fine, chard. Calling just helps you avoid a really tricky spot OOP if you miss. Baby steps, riiiigggggght?

Nice table selection. Tablemaxxx is soooo bad, I haven't seen a worse player at 1-2 NL. I almost always raise to about $35 with no reads. With him in the pot I'd call because 100% tablemaxxx will stack off with TPNK.

lotta dead money there

I like to raise 3-4x intial raise + whatever else is in the pot already . Here I'd pump it to 40$ preflop.

Postflop depends on a million things (texture, # of callers, stacks behind, etc.) but I have no preset line.

oh btw whatever u do it's important to play AA-QQ same way obv... (for the non-braindead players who are paying attention).

also, if the table is COMPLETELY horrendous ( and you'll likely get 2-3 callers) then calling is fine. You can get lots of $$$ on flops you hit. But I still think raising is generally more +ev (depending on your postflop play obv)

I think raising here to $35 is very good cause all the dead money. Luci may (ok, maybe unlikely) fold a QQ or JJ too.

I'd also reraise. calling is not bad though being oop without reads, after all you are on a draw. that is probably lower variance but imo less +ev than reraising, especially if metagame is a consideration (ie reraising later with AA).

btw a quick way to calculate a pot sized raise is multiply original raise by 3, then add the dead money (7x3 + 17 = 38). but you often don't need to do so much to get the same effect...30 or so is also a good amount.

wow guys make it at least 40, id personally make it 45. Calling is retarded imo.

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

I know it sounds sucky. But how would you like to raise to 28 and the orignal preflop raiser calls you. The flop comes 952, and you lead out $50, he raise you all in. You just lost 1/3 of your stack. Or what if the flop come K72 and you bet 50 and he pushes? You potentially just lost your whole stack.

Sounds like a way too scared approach to poker.

Originally Posted by nutsinho

wow guys make it at least 40, id personally make it 45. Calling is retarded imo.

If you're gonna juice the pot that much why not just push?

Originally Posted by chardrian

Originally Posted by nutsinho

wow guys make it at least 40, id personally make it 45. Calling is retarded imo.

If you're gonna juice the pot that much why not just push?

so ppl can call and stack off on A or K high flop?

Originally Posted by Genitruc

Originally Posted by chardrian

Originally Posted by nutsinho

wow guys make it at least 40, id personally make it 45. Calling is retarded imo.

If you're gonna juice the pot that much why not just push?

so ppl can call and stack off on A or K high flop?

and so you can play AA KK and QQ same way and make lots of monies?

Originally Posted by chardrian

Originally Posted by nutsinho

wow guys make it at least 40, id personally make it 45. Calling is retarded imo.

If you're gonna juice the pot that much why not just push?

would you just push QQ+? no. We don't want to make it obvious what we have such that any decent pair calls you down.
This is a great spot to play JJ+, AK identically and superaggro. If my quick glance was accurate I think a pot sized reraise is to 36, and youre in terrible position so id add a tad. 40$ is probably the best size--maybe 45 hints that youd prefer to take it down uncontested.

also there's times someone calls with 99-jj and the flop has a Q or even J and they fold to a cbet.

I am known to overthink sometimes, so yes I would be tempted to push with QQ+ here sometimes in the hopes that it would be read as weak and called by a hand like 99-JJ.

And like I said it was my second hand at the table, so the uber-donk push has some added merit I think. But I also like the raise to 45 - just seems you have to make a continuation bet no matter what if called (since this is how u'd play KK or AA as well).

Originally Posted by chardrian

But I also like the raise to 45 - just seems you have to make a continuation bet no matter what if called (since this is how u'd play KK or AA as well).

Hence ending up in a tricky spot.

Originally Posted by nutsinho

wow guys make it at least 40, id personally make it 45. Calling is retarded imo.

dont totally agree.
Aks isnt so weak multiway but i agree that we should tend to pump this upto $40~ preflop.
If we assume someone might three bet QQ here i might find a 4bet push over to steal.

Funny thing is, even though I didn't know the answer, I thought this was a really basic question. Obviously playing styles makes a big difference.

i shouldnt have said calling is retarded because teh sootedness gives you multiway strength, but the best play is EASILY a big reraise. You shouldnt feel uncomfortable about cbetting the flop because they are definitely making a mistake by continuing with 99 even if the flop is 732r.

Ok thanks all.

The results of this hand were funny, so I'll tell em.

I didn't know how much to raise, overthought it a bit, and just pushed - figured I was fine taking down the blinds, would give me a weird image early, and if I do get called then lesson learned. Instead I got called by Luci_Loot with AQ.

Originally Posted by nutsinho

i shouldnt have said calling is retarded because teh sootedness gives you multiway strength, but the best play is EASILY a big reraise. You shouldnt feel uncomfortable about cbetting the flop because they are definitely making a mistake by continuing with 99 even if the flop is 732r.

totally agree.
If your preflop play is like this with AA then playing QQ against the same line is dangerous (still happens to me though lots )

Hmm, even if we had crap, wouldn't this be a good spot for a squeeze play? And if its a good spot for a squeeze play, shouldn't we play our strong hands exactly the same way to disguise the times we are squeezing?