Bad all-in?? $.05/.10

Here's the HH. Tear it apart, guys, I have trouble with these types of hands. The other player's hands + result are in white text at the bottom.

$0.05/$0.1 No Limit Holdem
4 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
CO ($8.79)
BTN ($6.07)
SB ($8.47)
Hero ($7.25)

Pre-flop: ($0.15, 4 players) Hero is BB
1 fold, BTN raises to $0.4, SB calls $0.35, Hero calls $0.3

Flop: ($1.2, 3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, BTN bets $0.45, SB calls $0.45, Hero calls $0.45

Turn: ($2.55, 3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, BTN bets $1, SB raises to $3, Hero goes all-in $6.4, BTN goes all-in $5.22, SB calls $2.22

River: ($20.39, 3 players)

Final Pot: $20.39 [rake $1.00]
BTN shows: Kh Jh
SB shows: Qd Kc

SB wins $17.3
SB wins $2.25
Hero lost -$7.25
BTN lost -$6.07

Lead the flop. Lots of times when I face button raisers here I'll lead because we have a draw and an overcard and they were most likely stealing preflop and this flop doesn't really help to many hands. Turn is bad but close from a math standpoint.

edit: my math could be off because it looks like the converter messed it up but i am way to tired right now to do it.

Originally Posted by NLHE lahooozaher

Lead the flop.

In hindsight, I agree.

Originally Posted by NLHE lahooozaher

Turn is bad but close from a math standpoint.

edit: my math could be off because it looks like the converter messed it up but i am way to tired right now to do it.

My math at the table was as follows: 12 outs, roughly 3 to 1 against winning. I seriously believed BOTH villains would call the all-in. I put in $6.40 to take a shot at more than $13, so I felt I was behind on the pot odds. But I wasn't sure I was actually that far behind - didn't know if the Aces were outs which would have made this an OK pot odds play.

I'm working on the HH now to verify the math. I will edit above post. HH subtracted the $1 rake out of the river pot, so I manually added it.

Fold preflop. Fold flop. Fold turn. Buy in full.

Ok let's do the math..

Best case scenario on the turn: 15 outs or about 30% equity. You have to invest $6.4 to win $20.4, about 31.4% investment. So you don't have odds to call. And it's actually worse than that, because some of your outs can be tainted.. they could have a set (kills 2 outs), an ace (probably kills 3 outs), one or two hearths (as was the case here!)..

Just dump it on the turn, rest was ok..

Originally Posted by grnydrowave2

Fold preflop. Fold flop. Fold turn. Buy in full.

no

yes, minus the buy in full part ;p

Originally Posted by mcatdog

Originally Posted by grnydrowave2

Fold preflop. Fold flop. Fold turn. Buy in full.

no

yes

Wow, postwhoring is fun!

Why are we calling OOP with a gutshot here on the flop?

I buy in full, btw. I usually rebuy if I get below $8 on NL10. Not sure why I hadn't rebought here, yet - probably multitabling and missed it for a few hands.

i like flop c/r, if i was going to c/c my plan would be to bluff, turn is a good semibluff card so i would probably just lead it for pot

Originally Posted by grnydrowave2

Originally Posted by mcatdog

Originally Posted by grnydrowave2

Fold preflop. Fold flop. Fold turn. Buy in full.

no

yes

Wow, postwhoring is fun!

no, to both

Any credit for getting my money in good? I was actually ahead with one card to come? I had reads on both being crazy loose, but when do you push against these fish? It certainly all went wrong here.

flop call is marginal. i would lead the turn for 3/4 pot though.

Originally Posted by Robb

Any credit for getting my money in good? I was actually ahead with one card to come? I had reads on both being crazy loose, but when do you push against these fish? It certainly all went wrong here.

you weren't ahead when the money went in bub

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

Originally Posted by Robb

Any credit for getting my money in good? I was actually ahead with one card to come? I had reads on both being crazy loose, but when do you push against these fish? It certainly all went wrong here.

you weren't ahead when the money went in bub

Oops. Mistake re-reading HH.

robb,

i dont mind the call pf, if you must. i dont mind the flop call, either...you had odds + implied, assuming your A was live.

the turn shove was dumb as hell, though. you are better than that. you lost half your equity on the turn!! and, you have NO fold equity to the RRer. you are going to get called...period.

you also are at a 10NL table...prolly the biggest factor here. this kind of aggression is totally unnecessary down here. just pick spots to shove when you have the equity. otherwise, you are suffering from Fancy Play Syndrome. believe me, i am the charter member.

dont try and suckout for a stack when you are relying solely on a draw.

Originally Posted by Chopper

dont try and suckout for a stack when you are relying solely on a draw.

unless it's on the flop. I don't mind being stacked when i push oesd + flush on the flop. Fold equity plus outs = long-term profit.

Originally Posted by daven

Originally Posted by Chopper

dont try and suckout for a stack when you are relying solely on a draw.

unless it's on the flop. I don't mind being stacked when i push oesd + flush on the flop. Fold equity plus outs = long-term profit.

You say FE but if you get a fold they're folding worse hands equity wise.

No one under 100nl is capable of folding any type of hand ever. That is what I've learned lately.

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

Originally Posted by daven

Originally Posted by Chopper

dont try and suckout for a stack when you are relying solely on a draw.

unless it's on the flop. I don't mind being stacked when i push oesd + flush on the flop. Fold equity plus outs = long-term profit.

You say FE but if you get a fold they're folding worse hands equity wise.

No one under 100nl is capable of folding any type of hand ever. That is what I've learned lately.

I'll second that - show down the nuts, or close, or watch your chips get stacked by someone across the table. I need to tighten up, and not make "plays." Just solid, raise-with-a-good-hand poker.

Originally Posted by daven

Originally Posted by Chopper

dont try and suckout for a stack when you are relying solely on a draw.

unless it's on the flop. I don't mind being stacked when i push oesd + flush on the flop. Fold equity plus outs = long-term profit.

besides, here, its not OE...its a gutshot. not that that matters much on the flop (i dont mind trying to get it in on the flop)...but we were being asked about the push, which was on the turn.

as for No Fold 'Em, Hold 'Em...if you play a nitty style, and psb TPTK for two streets and 1/2 pot it on river...or set hunt...or play 2 pr hard on the flop...or cbet the flop HU and only 2 barrel on scare cards...or only semi-bluff big draws on the flop...and NEVER bluff with the intention of pushing someone off a pot, you will win at a high clip.

start using "trickery," like here, and you will get caught most times. play w/in the math, and only push larger edges....down here.

oh, and believe ALMOST ALL river aggression.

Originally Posted by gabe

i like flop c/r,

^^ This is my line as well, to around $2-$2.50. His 1/3 pot lead stinks of overcards/weakness and just calling is asking for trouble, especially with the SB still in the pot (as you found out! )

Thanks, guys. I really appreciate the help, especially Chopper's advice. I think I need to get more nitty, and then also more aggressive when I do hit a big hand or big draw. Otherwise, I'll just fold before it gets expensive.

Originally Posted by grnydrowave2

Fold preflop. Fold flop. Fold turn. Buy in full.

and how is it a good semi bluff if he has no FE? he might get the button to fold but i dont see anyway he gets SB to fold.

Originally Posted by Robb

Otherwise, I'll just fold before it gets expensive.

now youre getting the hang of it. folding marginal situations when you know you could blow MOST opponents off a pot with your "air" is the hardest thing to avoid doing at microstakes. very often, you wish you had just folded to the friggin call stations.

besides, many other "better" opportunities are just around the corner. dont bet off 15% of your stack before you get the opportunity to stack the next turkey...thats where it costs you money. that 15% actually cost you 30%.

get it?

Originally Posted by Chopper

Originally Posted by daven

Originally Posted by Chopper

dont try and suckout for a stack when you are relying solely on a draw.

unless it's on the flop. I don't mind being stacked when i push oesd + flush on the flop. Fold equity plus outs = long-term profit.

besides, here, its not OE...its a gutshot. not that that matters much on the flop (i dont mind trying to get it in on the flop)...but we were being asked about the push, which was on the turn.

misunderstanding. I was referring only to the comment you made - not to this particular hand

gotcha. if you were speaking of only combos (10-12+ outers), then, yeah, i agree with stacking off.

i was still stuck in the OP's thread and didnt notice you were speaking about my comment, specifically.

Originally Posted by gabe

i like flop c/r, if i was going to c/c my plan would be to bluff, turn is a good semibluff card so i would probably just lead it for pot

i was thinking flop c/r too. both villains look terribly weak here and a nice raise will probably take the pot away.